Older 9x21 Witness Gold Team as First Open gun..

[93civiccpe]

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to the forums and have recently picked up my first open division gun. I have wanted to compete in open division for quite some time, and the biggest barrier has always been the cost of a decent rig. I saw an incredible deal and was fortunate to grab it before it was taken. I picked up an EAA Witness Gold Team pistol that was built in the mid to late 90's as an IPSC Open Pistol. It is in 9x21 caliber and I'm already stocking up on brass wherever I can find it. I wanted to verify that I"m correct in my assumption that this is a small frame since it is a 9x21 caliber and was put together in the mid 90's? It already has a trigger job, and the Henning flat trigger installed. I was told that it has a titanium firing pin in it as well. It came with 8 magazines which all have competition basepads and hold between 19 and 21 rounds. The Tasco tube style red dot site was "bullet proofed by doctor dot". I'm not sure what exactly that means, but it is clear, the dot has adjustable brightness, and I sight through it well with both eyes open. I have done a bunch of reading about these but I guess my question is what I should do to get it "competition ready" on a budget, and what should I look out for? The one major upgrade that I think I definitely want to do is trim the grips and install one of Henning's competition magwells. I'm also going to flip the slide racker to the other side as I'm a right handed shooter and it is more natural on the left side of the gun for me. I'm not as concerned with a bigstick 171.25mm magazine, but have already been informed that Jim Anglin can put one together for me for a reasonable cost. One of my concerns is seeing that a bunch of these have the slides crack around the ejection port. How can I prevent this? What weight recoil spring should I run to help prevent this? Is there a recoil buffer developed to help with this yet? All in all, I think I lucked out with a great gun that has spent most of its life in a safe. I can't wait to get out there and get shooting with it. I appreciate any and all information, suggestions, and advice that any of you have to give. Here are a few pictures, I'll try to get better pictures later:

[Joe4d]

the three big advantages of a USPSA open gun are the dot, the comp, and the capacity to not have to reload very often, I'd pass on the funnel and get the 170mm mags first

[flack jacket]

I'm using 6-8 lbs on my P9/Tanfoglio Also built in early 90's

[RIIID]

The slide racker is on the right side so it doesn't interfere with your right thumb.

Rich

[93civiccpe]

wow, thank you guys for all the quick replies. I definitely am going to get a big stick mag put together, but throwing a magwell on there now allows me to get out there and shoot some steel matches and will give me extra practice swapping mags which I know will benefit me in the long run. I do have a question about the slide racker. I see the majority of right hand shooters with it on the left side so your mag changing hand can quickly clear a jam or rack the slide if you have an empty chamber. Maybe it is because of the larger tube style red dot, but it seems awkward and slow to reach across to rack the slide if I kept it on the right to keep it away from my thumb. It gets more awkward if you are trying to tilt the gun to the right to clear a jam. I would definitely like any insight on this. I know it was originally set up this way due to the mount having a little less clearance on the left side, but you can either remove a little material to give the clearance you need, or you can get a smaller profile slide racker. (I hear the Henning modified sidewinders work well).

Edited April 21, 2011 by 93civiccpe

[Joe4d]

right hand shooter, left side slide racker, just use one or modify it to clear your hands. In addition to a slide racker it is also a kickstand for table starts. You should buy a cz 75 25 round magazine and let me know if it works, cause I am cheap and would rather experiment with someone elses money,

[93civiccpe]

Hey Joe,

I've been given some great information about the high capacity mags by members via email and pm's. I don't have quite enough time during this lunch break but I'll try to get the information I have together and send you a pm. There are actually quite a few ways to get a good performing 170 mag.

[Al Capizzo]

Hey Joe,

I've been given some great information about the high capacity mags by members via email and pm's. I don't have quite enough time during this lunch break but I'll try to get the information I have together and send you a pm. There are actually quite a few ways to get a good performing 170 mag.

Really? I'd like to hear about that also! Your gun is exactly what I've been shooting lately, with a c-more.

[jjanglin]

Eaa sell small frame 25 round magazines.

Jim/Pa

Sailors

[Nealio]

Do they have the right taper though?

[Floydian]

Nice find 93Civiccpe,

Thats an original, is it a cone lock-up?

Very rare & retro style mount, comp & trigger, hard to find these old parts nowdays.

Have the mag-release checked, you will probably need 2003/04 onward type.

Same deal with any mags that came with it, if they have the large slot like old P-9s.

For I.P.S.C you may want an ambi safety.

If you want Major but don't want to stress your slide consider hand loading near maximum length ammo

and heavier projectiles like 135s will launch your slide back a little slower.

Nice firm recoil springs to start with, fresh 12lb &10lbs.

Maybe a forth port for major? although be a shame to butcher that original oldskool comp.

The longer Henning firing pins give these guns 100% detonation & he does one for the small frame.

Hope something here helps

Good Luck

Floydian

Edited April 22, 2011 by Floydian

[ipscjoe]

"doctor dot" was what Ross Dean called himself back in the day.......That's just means the scope has been beefed up to handle the abuse...That's a PDP2.....Back in the day believe it or not, Huening sold 18lb springs for these guns for major....I think your trigger is most likely not a Henning, but either a WCPI or a Huening......not that it matters...

[Joe4d]

Eaa sell small frame 25 round magazines.

Jim/Pa

Sailors

I didnt see anything on EAA's websight.

[jjanglin]

You have to ask them, Eaa has parts etc; that is not on the web site,

the part number for a small frame 25 round mag=EA9M200525RDS

sku 101921

jim/Pa

Sailors

[93civiccpe]

Alright, first of all, thank you guys for all the information. I am learning more about this pistol every day and I appreciate it. I saw the flat trigger and figured it was a Hennings and didn't even think about the fact that this gun was put together in the mid to late 90's, well before the Henning's trigger came out. I appreciate all the information you guys have provided me and I hope to one day be able to pass along the information I'm learning. I am going to get some more pictures posted tonight with a few more questions but I wanted first to relay some information about the small frame mags.

I was hesitant at first to post all of this in the open forum as I have not been able to try out these combinations myself yet, but here is what I've been told so far. I believe the easiest way to get a good functioning 170 big stick mag is to have Jim Anglin at Sailor's custom build one for you. I personally am going to have him build one for me in the near future once I get load development done. (I know I'll have to send him my gun to make sure everything is tuned right and I wanted to first get some range time and figure out my load). I hear he can trim one of the EAA 25 round mags that he listed above and can add a +2 basepad to make a bigstick mag. (By the way, if you download the catalog from EAA's website, the big mags for both the small frame and the large frame are listed in there, but Jim does give the correct numbers above). From everything I've seen and heard, he's the best source for getting a full functioning big stick mag and I believe his prices are very fair.

For backup mags, I have been informed that there are factory 16 rounders, 17 round cz75 mecgar mags, 18 round sp01 mags, the eaa 25 round mag, and I hear there is even a 26 round mag out there but it is too big for the 170 gauge so it would have to be modified. I also know that in the henning's section in the classified forums there is a great write-up on modifying the springs, mags, and followers in order to increase the capacity of the above mags to hold an extra 2-3 rounds on average. I'm going to be investing some money and will be attempting some of this on my own. I will try to document it with pictures if it will help others who are trying to make the same choice. But for my 170 I am going to leave that to the pro... as I find that is the wisest choice if you want a competition mag that will be reliable.

[93civiccpe]

Okay.. Pictures look like they are ready. First of all, ipscjoe, thank you so much for the information about Ross Dean (aka dr. dot) and also about the trigger. I am amazed and the wealth of knowledge and how helpful everyone is on here. I definitely appreciate it. Floydian, I also appreciate all the information you have given, although it has led me to have some more questions. As for whether or not it is a cone lock up, I am more than happy to expose my ignorance. What does "cone lock up" mean? From reading through these forums, I've learned that most tanfoglios are either the 1911 bushing style slide or a cone lock up slide. This definitely does not have the front bushing like a 1911 as you can see in the pictures below. That being said, how do I go about removing the compensator to remove the barrel and clean the slide? I see a good bit of residue above the barrel towards the front of the slide that seems to be just about impossible to get to without removing the barrel? Any suggestions? I have read that the older comps are threaded on, but are they right hand threaded or reverse threaded? Is there any technique to getting them off? The comp already has a small nick in it from the previous owner, and I wonder if it came from removing it for cleaning. I can see how the newer 1911 bushing style slide would make it so much easier to remove the barrel for cleaning, but I do like how tight this slide and barrel locks up.

I'm confused about the mags / mag release advice you gave me. What benefit is the 2003/2004 type mag release? I am guessing I don't have this as I believe this gun was built in the 90's, but I included pictures of the mags I have along with a picture of the mag release in the frame and looking up in the magwell. (I'm not sure if that will make it easier to tell, but I'm curious what I should be looking for and what benefit the newer releases will give).

This came with a brand new wolf 15 pound recoil spring, which is what I may begin with to start on the safe side. It did come with an eaa extended ambi safety which I know I can use for ipsc. I also agree it would be a shame to butcher the comp by putting an extra port. I am going to work up my load and see how the comp does, and if it seems like I still need to do some more work, I may look into having a new comp put on the barrel, but I do want to preserve the original. That being said, is there any reason why I should not shoot this in competition? I have had a few pm me telling me that these older tanfoglios are getting harder and harder to find and to take care of it as a lot of the custom parts can no longer be found. I definitely take extremely good care of my firearms and baby them more than I should, but I want to make sure this isn't something that belongs in a collection before I start competing with it. Once again I appreciate all the information and suggestions/advice you guys have been so kind to give! (And Happy Easter!)

[93civiccpe]

Here are the pictures:

[93civiccpe]

I do have a couple more questions that maybe you guys can help me with as well. I was looking through the stuff included with this Tanfoglio and I found the bag shown in the picture below which is labeled a Chip McCormick titanium firing pin. Is there an easy way for me to tell if this is the titanium firing pin for the gun, or if the titanium pin has already been installed and this is the stock pin? I am assuming the gun will function much better with the titanium pin so I want to verify that it is the one installed. Here is the picture:

And I also get one more chance to show off my lack of knowledge. This metal cylinder piece was included which is labeled "C.P. BULLETS CP9x21" on one side, and the other appears to have a taper. It looks to be about the correct diameter to fit the 9x21 brass. I'm just curious as to its intended purpose? Here are the pictures of it, and thanks again for the help!!

[shooterbenedetto]

case guage is the round thingy, Dont like the titatanium parts

as they wear out. keep it as spare.

[Floydian]

Okay.. Pictures look like they are ready. First of all, ipscjoe, thank you so much for the information about Ross Dean (aka dr. dot) and also about the trigger. I am amazed and the wealth of knowledge and how helpful everyone is on here. I definitely appreciate it. Floydian, I also appreciate all the information you have given, although it has led me to have some more questions. As for whether or not it is a cone lock up, I am more than happy to expose my ignorance. What does "cone lock up" mean? From reading through these forums, I've learned that most tanfoglios are either the 1911 bushing style slide or a cone lock up slide. This definitely does not have the front bushing like a 1911 as you can see in the pictures below. That being said, how do I go about removing the compensator to remove the barrel and clean the slide? I see a good bit of residue above the barrel towards the front of the slide that seems to be just about impossible to get to without removing the barrel? Any suggestions? I have read that the older comps are threaded on, but are they right hand threaded or reverse threaded? Is there any technique to getting them off? The comp already has a small nick in it from the previous owner, and I wonder if it came from removing it for cleaning. I can see how the newer 1911 bushing style slide would make it so much easier to remove the barrel for cleaning, but I do like how tight this slide and barrel locks up.

I'm confused about the mags / mag release advice you gave me. What benefit is the 2003/2004 type mag release? I am guessing I don't have this as I believe this gun was built in the 90's, but I included pictures of the mags I have along with a picture of the mag release in the frame and looking up in the magwell. (I'm not sure if that will make it easier to tell, but I'm curious what I should be looking for and what benefit the newer releases will give).

This came with a brand new wolf 15 pound recoil spring, which is what I may begin with to start on the safe side. It did come with an eaa extended ambi safety which I know I can use for ipsc. I also agree it would be a shame to butcher the comp by putting an extra port. I am going to work up my load and see how the comp does, and if it seems like I still need to do some more work, I may look into having a new comp put on the barrel, but I do want to preserve the original. That being said, is there any reason why I should not shoot this in competition? I have had a few pm me telling me that these older tanfoglios are getting harder and harder to find and to take care of it as a lot of the custom parts can no longer be found. I definitely take extremely good care of my firearms and baby them more than I should, but I want to make sure this isn't something that belongs in a collection before I start competing with it. Once again I appreciate all the information and suggestions/advice you guys have been so kind to give! (And Happy Easter!)

Hi 93Civiccpe,

By Cone Lockup I mean cone lockup slide to comp as you have found out. With your setup the slide, barrel & comp are left assembled for most of the part, meaning the comp is permanent. For cleaning its easy to work with just the slide/barrel/comp and the guide rod & spring removed.

If I have to pull a comp off: Soft jaws in the vice & soft flame/heat on the comp & soft thick leather in the jaws of some very large multi grips. The thread is right handed. I refit mine with Locktite 638, the green stuff, but everyone has their own favorite for this.

The newer mag releases have a much larger catch to key into the mag slot. The newer mags also have a thinner slot.

Stops any up & down slop/movement of the mag in the frame. I would do the mag catch but the magazines themselves

are not as important. Pretty sure Henning has a thread or some comment on this.

Off topic but both our Gold Teams have polagonal rifling & will not group the new breed of thin copper jacket electroplated over lead! They are very accurate otherwise.

There is a lot of space to play with more porting behind your 3 ports & keep to factory look/spec 93Civiccpe.

No reason why you shouldn't shoot that gun in competition, we all do ,

Happy Blasting & Easter

Floydian

Edited April 26, 2011 by Floydian

[vous]

"There is a lot of space to play with more porting behind your 3 ports & keep to factory look/spec 93Civiccpe"

You will need to be careful with this comp. I have almost the exact same pistol and the comp on these is not like the newer coned comps but is cut flush at the end of the comp that sits against the slide and the barrel screws in and sits in the entire length of the back part of the comp up to the first port.

If you start cutting into the back portion there you will also need to either shorten the barrel or cut the corresponding port in the front barrel portion, both options which I personally wouldn't do. 93Civiccpe's idea of just getting another comp altogether is probably the best if more ports are needed. However, mine works fine with just the three ports and the proper load and recoil spring weight.