Best 1911, on a tight budget???

[jhgtyre]

The CZ is a good choice even if you do have short fingers.  You can get the SA model which has a flat trigger with a shorter length of pull for about $400.  It also has ambi safeties and the one I just bought came with a high cap mag. 

-ld

Heh, I guess it depends on the shooter. I can almost reach the trigger okay on those, but I don't have a prayer of reaching the thumb safety with my strong hand thumb.

You do have some small mitts don't you? I have two of the single action models, well one is a Witness with an SA trigger, and my daughters, both of small stature, can weild them without too much trouble.

Now back on topic... You might also look around for deals on used Colt 1991 models. I found one for very cheap and in spite of it being loose as hell in the slide it was very accurate and reliable to boot. There is also nothing wrong with the Mil Spec Springfields, the Springfield Loaded model, and Kimbers I have either owned or shot quite a bit. Your best bet is to get your hands on as many different models as you can, hopefully while putting some rounds down range, and decide which fits your budget and needs the best.

-ld

[Jeremiah]

Wow, you guys have been incredibly informative and have really opened my eyes on this subject.

I have been looking at some springfield mil spec's and they seem to hover around my budget nicely. They are also praised over on 1911forum.com.

If I do end up getting a springfield, I'm going to want to play around with it a little. I know that I like novak sights. The novaks seem like they would slide in and out of a holster very well. As far as triggers go, I'm less certain.

If I do a trigger job, do you really have to replace the hammer, sear, and main spring to really reap the benefits? I see that a mccormick trigger is only about $30, but if you add in the other stuff you end up pushing a lot closer to $100. I know I'll do this stuff as money allows because I'm a tinkerer at heart.

Man, I can see this forum costing me a lot of money on down the road.....

[EricW]

Wow, you guys have been incredibly informative and have really opened my eyes on this subject.

I have been looking at some springfield mil spec's and they seem to hover around my budget nicely. They are also praised over on 1911forum.com.

If I do end up getting a springfield, I'm going to want to play around with it a little. I know that I like novak sights. The novaks seem like they would slide in and out of a holster very well. As far as triggers go, I'm less certain.

If I do a trigger job, do you really have to replace the hammer, sear, and main spring to really reap the benefits? I see that a mccormick trigger is only about $30, but if you add in the other stuff you end up pushing a lot closer to $100. I know I'll do this stuff as money allows because I'm a tinkerer at heart.

Man, I can see this forum costing me a lot of money on down the road.....

Buying a mil-spec with the intent of replacing parts to turn it into a better gun is a mistake. You'll end up spending more than just buying the right gun.

You really do need the s-7 hammer and sear. That's $70-100. Add a beavertail for $25. Add at minimum $75 in gunsmithing to do a proper trigger job. Add a $20 guide rod. $50-75 worth of sites.

That's over two hundred smackers right there. And that's assuming everything else is OK. It won't be. The mil spec is a plinker level gun. You can't save any money by buying it and fixing it as you go.

Personally, I'd pass on the Novaks and go straight to BoMars. (ErikW will chime in here shortly to say that BoMars are the work of the devil.)

[Jeremiah]

Ok, then, you say I'd need to add $200 "smacker" to a mil spec in order to have a reliable and very shootable gun. That puts my total up to about $650.

What $650 or less gun would be better?

Where is the threshold where all the guns start to run together in quality? $500? $600? $1000? Where at?

Who knows anything about the charles daly's? They seem to have mccormick insides and nice finishes. They also have the high rise beavertail, ambi safeties, combat hammers, and skeletonized triggers standard. They seem like the best deal out there, but I have never seen one in the flesh. Oh, best part, they are less than $500 new.

I'll check into the bo mar sights.

[EricW]

I don't know if magwells are legal in IDPA or not, but I'd be looking at the Springfield loadeds (no magwells) or whatever the model is one up from there that has the magwell. Call Springfield and ask. (Best customer service in the gun biz.)

If you were at the gunshow here this weekend I would have turned you on to a Kimber that was at the table next to me. It had it all and was really tight. I think it was in your price range or just a shade over.

The only reason I'm being a stinker about this is I went through this already. I bought a lower-end Springfield loaded, and once I did the math on what it took to turn it into a competition-ready pistol, it was just cheaper to sell it and buy what I needed. Springfield is a great company, but I'll tell you now that the lower-end stuff like the mil-spec and the cheaper loaded pistols (like I had) are rough around the edges. Mine had a rough chamber, but slide to frame fit was very tight. The slide was soft metallurgically. I hardly had a thousand rounds through it before the slide stop notch started rounding over: OK for a plinking gun. Not OK for 2000 rounds a month.

YMMV.

The one 1911 that's probably a safe buy as a used gun is Kimber. There's a ton of people who buy them and shoot all of a hundred rounds and peddle them without really screwing with them.

[Jeremiah]

I guess I don't know what YMMV is?

What makes kimber a better gun than a springfield?

By the way, if you shoot 2000 rounds a month, you can go ahead and call me a plinker!

I don't have time to shoot that much amo, because I shoot at least that many "rounds" out of my bow a month. That is where I'm most competive. So, if anyone wants to swap 1911 advice for bow advice, I'm willing to trade.

There are a bunch of models in the kimber line. I think most of you know what I'm looking for or at least should be looking for. Which model should I be looking at from Kimber?

[Larrys1911]

Regardless what you buy in your price range you are not going to get the Best Quality stuff. If you move up from a mil-spec to a Loaded Springfield you will have decent sights and I think they come with a mag well now. The rest is pretty much junk compared to the high end stuff. If you want a trigger job done youre still going to replace the sear and hammer and probably the disconnector and the springs and most likely the trigger AND Then your most likely going to have to take it to a gunsmith to fit the parts and cut the right angles. That or you can buy 100-300 worth of tools to do the job yourself. Its not like a rifle where you can replace the trigger group and have a trigger job.

Its actually cheaper to start with a bare frame and slide if you have some of the tools and can do most of it yourself than it is to buy ANY of the factory guns and start swapping parts, DONT ASK ME HOW I KNOW THIS SO WELL, Lets just say the third time is a charm and I wont do it again. The difference is you cant shoot a bare frame!

If you just want a 1911 I would say buy a used one Springfield or Kimber.

You WANT:

Sights

extended safety (ambi is up to you)

Beavertail grip safety.

Tactical or extended (NOT OVERSIZE BUTTON) mag release

A magwell

A trigger is a plus but if you havent shot a 1911 much or played with a really NICE gun chances are you dont know what you are missing, so learn to shoot using that factory trigger and save your money for a while then have a trigger job done.

I have seen many Springfields in competition, Rob Leatham shoots for them as have others. Some ARE without a doubt rough around the edges, others are really nice guns, it just depends on what day it was built I suppose. In the last couple years their quality has really gone up because they are competing with Kimber. I am unaware of metalurgy problems like soft slides on a regular basis and as somone said they have the best customer service Dept in the business.

Kimbers are really nice entry guns too the base mod will have about everything you need except a magwell. and you should be able to pick up a used on in your price range (500 or so) the origional Custom cost 600 brand new not too many years ago.

Dont worry about the barrel not being ramped in a 45, if you buy ANY other caliber you most certainly want a ramped barrel!

If you want a 1911 and dont know how to work on it yourself and are on a budget stay with a 45 cal gun. 45 is the most forgiving caliber in the 1911, everything else will most likely require more tuning to run than a 45. As someone else advised if you want something other than a 45 buy a different gun type.

By the way I wouldnt worry about a worn out gun...Few people shoot enough to wear out one, especially since the oldest Kimber is 20 IIRC. I would however worry about botched DIY jobs. There are many more bad guns because of some nit wit trying to do something they had no business trying to do, than there are guns that are worn out. ESPECIALLY WITH A 1911.

Since you dont like Glocks, A CZ would be my first choice in your price range or maybe a HiPower Clone (Be careful here you can get good ones or bad ones frome the same company apparently). Maybe even the XD but its not my cup of tea! or even a Taurus PT92 or Beretta police trade in.

You will also end up buying aftermarked mags so dont leave those out of the equation. I like Wilsons but I used Shooting Stars for years.

If your planning on replacing the parts anyway Ithink I would buy the Springfield Mil Spec If not buy a higher grade gun and move on. IF you cant do things like fit a beavertail etc I think you are better off going straight to a Loaded or Kimber.

because the amount a GS will charge you to fit the beavertail, trigger Job, Install the sights etc will be more then the gun cost.

Hope that helps (HTH)

and YMMV is (Your Mileage may vary)

Larry P

[Duane Thomas]

If you want a 1911 and dont know how to work on it yourself and are on a budget stay with a 45 cal gun. 45 is the most forgiving caliber in the 1911, everything else will most likely require more tuning to run than a 45.

Truer words were never spoken.

[Duane Thomas]

I don't know if magwells are legal in IDPA or not

They are.

[JFD]

CD's DO NOT have CMC parts inside. I really doubt anyone would claim them. I've had 2 CDs, the first one wouldn't fire at all and the replacement gun needed all "guts" (scientific term) replaced before the gun was worth a crap. Once it was setup, it was an OK gun. Figure at least $150+ to get the gun up halfway up to par, but in the end you would still have a CD with no resale value.

Getting 1911 parts to fit the gun is mostly a hit and miss thing. I know the mag catch takes quite a bit of work in order to fit, and any aftermarket extractor and ejector will stick out the backside of the slide almost 1/8".

[DogmaDog]

I bought a Kimber Gold Match in 1998 for almost $1000 in CA.

I've shot perhaps 10,000 rounds through it, and never had a problem, except with the crappy shooting star magazine that came with it. The trigger is just as good as on the $2000 (used) Benny Hill ltd. gun I just bought, at least as far as I can tell.

I've replaced the mainspring with a 17 pounder, and added a mainspring housing/magwell combo from Wilson (S&A and Ed Brown make similar products), and there it is. Great gun.

I think if you just bought the Kimber Custom Target and some Wilson or CMC magazines, you'd be set for a while. Add a magwell and ambi safety when you scrape the cash together.

A springfield loaded would work just as well, according to reputation.

I have a CZ-75 in 9mm that was a real bargain ($350, and $35 for extra high cap magazines). I filed on the sights a little bit, and blackened the cheesy glow-in-the-dark dots, added a lighter mainspring, and bent up the magazine brake until it wouldn't work (that's good). It could use a trigger job, but is otherwise excellent. I think it would make a good SSP and a decent ESP gun for IDPA. It can be bought in .40, too.

As far as 1911s go, everyone should have one, but save up until you can get a good one.

DD

[Jeremiah]

Hey guys, I found a kimber custom II, stainless, in 40 S&W for $665. I'm really thinking about it.

Would this be the ticket for ESP?

I THINK I want a 40, but it worries that I don't see any more than I do out there for sale. I want a 40 for the cheaper amo costs over the 45. I think a 40 would recoil less and therefore be a little faster also.

Are these good enough reasons to go with a 40, or should I just go ahead and get a 45 and shoot in cdp?

By the way, what is the standard mag capacity in a 1911 chamered for 40, in say, a kimber? Are mags hard to find?

Another thing, when I had my last 1911, a thompson auto-ordinance, I shot cast bullets through it. I don't remember having any trouble with them feeding, but that was 10 years ago. Does anyone out there practice or shoot competition with cast bullets? Is there anything special you do in the cleaning department to make sure the gun stays reliable?

[Gun Geek]

Jerimiah:

If you hand load the ammo cost will be the same or a little less for the 45 than the 40. The reason I say this is that you can re-use 45 brass many more times than you can use 40 since the pressure is so much lower in the 45.

My guess is that mags are going to be much cheaper for the 45 than the 40. There just aren't as many 40s built on a 1911 single stack frame as there are 45s.

[PistolJim]

The cheapest decent .40 mags are CMC 9-round 10mm mags. Figure $30 a mag. Getting a .40 to lock the slide back and not lock open early with rounds in the mag can be frustrating! But an IDPA MUST.

Jim

[Jeremiah]

So, Jim, what your saying is, if I'm not a competent gunsmith, don't go with a 40?

I'm not going to take much convincing to go with the 45.

[DogmaDog]

Well, I believe every person should have a single stack .45. They should issue one to each student at high school graduation (after teaching firearm safety and marksmanship...a milspec for everyone, except some nice tricked out jobbie for the valedictorian ).

I shoot lead out of both my Kimber .45 and my STI .40. In the Kimber I've shot 155, 180, 200, and 230 gr lead bullets with no problems. With the STI (ramped barrel), I've shot 175 and 200 grainers, again with no problems (though only a couple hundred rounds, so far).

My special cleaning procedure is to put off cleaning as long as I can get away with it. Leading and fouling build up only to a certain point...then each bullet fired will remove as much as it deposits.

I concur with Geek about reloading costs, except that I'm able to scrounge lots of .40 brass just left behind at matches...if you're willing to do that, you can get it for free. .45 not so easy to come by.

As far as getting .40 to run in a single stack, I have no experience. I'm sure you can achieve less recoil with the .40, mostly because of the 125 PF floor vs. 165 for CDP...but then, the classifier times are shorter, and you'll be competing against others with low PF weapons.

So, yeah, I guess on a tight budget, it will be much easier to find a more traditional .45 that works reliably than it will be to find a rarer .40 and ensure that it works. That Kimber .40 sounds like a good deal, though, if it hasn't been chopped on and isn't all beat up.

Good luck,

DogmaDog

[Precision40]

I'm looking for a solid, functional, no frills 1911 on a incredibly tight budget. 

You get what you pay for. Kimber, Springfield, Para Ordnance, STI or SV. Anything else and it's hit and miss as far as quality. If you spend $300 on a 1911, don't expect it to be 100% reliable because it simply won't be. A GOOD 1911 will set you back $600-$900

[Duane Thomas]

I just posted this in another thread, but it seems appropriate here, too:

Awhile back, our host Brian Enos, based on his IMMENSE experience in the area, ranked the caliber/mag configurations that worked best in a 1911. The variables were .40 or .45, singlestack or doublestack, and the criterion was how easy it was to get a gun to run 100 percent. From most easily attained reliability to least, the list went:

.45 singlestack

.40 doublestack

.40 singlestack

.45 doublestack

In short, the .45 singlestacks are not that hard to make reliable. The .40 doublestacks can be a bit more challenging but still fairly easy. The .40 singlestacks can be problematic. And the .45 doublestacks are just not that great, reliability-wise. Not to say that any of these configuations can't be reliable, but if I were a betting man I'd go for a gun in one of the top two configurations, not the bottom two.

[rhino]

That's interesting. From what I've seen in the last ten years, Paras in .45 are noticeably less troublesome than the same gun in .40. Maybe it's different with STI and S-V?

[EricW]

BTW, I just looked at a Springfield Mil-spec.

Buying one with the intent of converting it to a competition gun is a 100% mistake. The trigger hardly even worked on the particular sample I looked at. Not a good sign.

[Mayonaise]

BTW, I just looked at a Springfield Mil-spec.

Buying one with the intent of converting it to a competition gun is a 100% mistake. The trigger hardly even worked on the particular sample I looked at. Not a good sign.

I disagree. If you're looking for a base gun for custom work I think the Mil-Spec is a great choice. you can get them for under $400. Put $400-$500 more into it using a good pistolsmith and you'll have a great IDPA CDP blaster. A better deal than spending $2k for a custom "production" gun IMO.

[rhino]

All of the big companies makes lemons ...

And while I agree that buying a mil spec to customize it is probably not a great idea, if you want a gun you can just shoot it's a great deal. Some people don't want/need or can't afford the bells and whistles, but they can still get excellent service from a more spartan 1911.

[EricW]

if you want a gun you can just shoot it's a great deal.

Considering it doesn't work and you'll have to put a couple hundred in it anyway, wouldn't just buying the $800 gun that works out of the box be the better deal? If people get personal satisfaction out of making a junker work, fine more power to them. But the cost savings are illusory at best.

[Jeremiah]

I just want everyone to know that springfield has a "mil spec" that runs about $500 new on the various internet auction sites. Springfield also has a "WWII mil spec" that goes for just under $400 to just over.

From what I've been seeing, there is a ton of difference in the two models.

If I buy new, is there any differences in quality between a kimber custom II and a springfield loaded full size?

I want nice a slick fixed sights, so I'm not interested in adjustable sights. The springfield has novaks, the kimber has a look alike, but they don't name them.

The springfield comes with a ambi safety and extended mag release, the kimber doesn't have either.

Is there anything I'm missing? The kimber are about $50 more, on average?

[rhino]

If I buy new, is there any differences in quality between a kimber custom II and a springfield loaded full size?

Quality-wise, they are very similar. The Kimber will probably have fewer sharp edges, though!

I want nice a slick fixed sights, so I'm not interested in adjustable sights.  The springfield has novaks, the kimber has a look alike, but they don't name them. 

The Kimber sights are the same as those sold by Chip McCormick and Nowlin under their own brand names. They look a lot like Heinie sights from behind, but with a smaller notch. Some people hate them, but I think they are fine. I think they give you a better sight picture than the Novaks (close to the Bo-Mar ideal).

The springfield comes with a ambi safety and extended mag release, the kimber doesn't have either. 

Is there anything I'm missing?  The kimber are about $50 more, on average?

The mag release on Kimbers is actually a little taller/long than that on the Springfield guns. I don't think either would be called "extended," as they're both substantially similar to what you'd find on a generic 1911A1 clone.

Give then same features, I've seen price differences closer to $100-150 in favor of the Springfield guns. That may be different since Springfield raised most of their prices earlier this year. In any case, there are models of Kimbers that you can get with ambi thumb safeties, but they cost a little more.

Here are some other things to consider:

The Kimber series II guns have a firing pin block (activated by the grip safety). Some people report problems with them (I definitely had some trouble with mine), and since they are an unnecessary feature, I think it's best to get a gun without it since it's just something else that can fail or otherwise create headaches. The Springfield guns do not have a firing pin block, and the little "lock" in the mainspring housing is benign if you leave it unlocked.

Another thing is the grip safety. Springfield uses an S&A high grip beavertail (or a clone thereof), which is a really good thing. Kimber uses their own grip safety and it does not allow you grip as high on the frame as you can with the S&A or Ed Brown, or similar beaver tail. If all else were equal, that alone would steer me toward the Springfield gun because I've had to have new beavertails fit to Kimbers so I can grip them the way I like.