Astigmatism, contacts, laser surgery?

[bberkley]

My astigmatism has gotten worse, and now have to wear Toric contact lenses, which rotate, and sometimes get out of place. Distance vision is fine, but I have an extraordinarily difficult time focusing on the front sight, and keeping both eyes open. I'm even having problems focusing on the front sight with one eye open.

I've been considering wearing regular corrective glasses for shooting, and not wearing my contacts to see if this would make a difference until I can save up the $$$ to get Lasik or RK.

I don't have much interest in going to Open (yet), as I mostly shoot Production, Limited, and L 10.

I'm sure some of you folks have had the same problem, and I was wondering what people's experiences were with the Toric lenses, glasses, or surgery.

Thanks,

Brian Berkley

TY46795

www.arpc-ipsc.org

[EricW]

There was a long thread on this waaay long ago. You might try doing a search. Several people posted their impressions of laser corrective surgery there.

[Mistral404]

LASIK is surgery. The results are not always as expected.

I reiterate this because I was about ready to go for it.

My very good friend just went in for surgery. His results were not good. He went two weeks after his brother had the surgery. His brother had excellent results.

My friend had very bad eyes- 7+ in each eye, over fifty but in great physical shape. His brother was just a couple of years younger. The surgeon was very well respected. So all things considered, I am still postponing the surgery.

My physician put me in a stronger contact which helped my astigmatism. You might find that a as possible solution. I actually use two different contacts in one eye, one script is for shooting sports the other is for normal use.

[bberkley]

You know, had I thought just a wee bit longer about this, I would have searched before asking.

/me kicks self

[bigsaxdog]

i found some stick on reading glass' things at walgreens. figure out what reading glass power gets the front sight in focus, then put one over your dominant eye. gives you a poor man's mono-vision(one eye for distance, one for close up). give it a try, you might like it. or have a pair of shooting glasses made that bring @ 2' to 6' in focus good. the doctor would know how to do it, they just get nervous when you bring the gun in and start dry-firing........

[AikiDale]

I just got back from the opthamololgist. I ordered three gasperms. The more rigid lens corrects the astigmatism better than the toric lens did. I warned the Dr. ahead of time that I wanted to bring in a gun and have her measure for a shooting lens so I could focus on the front sight. I'll have good distance vision most of the time and go the monovision route for shooting.

[Wakal]

I had LASIK six weeks ago.

I've been wearing glasses (well, until six weeks ago) for about 25 years. I tried contacts (toric, due to the fairly radical astigmatism) in extended wear (back in the late 80's), hard contacts (same time frame), but gave both up. Developed an allergic reaction to the plastic in the old extended wear contacts, and hated the hard contacts with a passion both deep and abiding.

Ended up on the Air Farce "Warfighter" PRK eye surgery list with a high enough priority due to my job (such as it is) to be reviewed in a few months instead of the three to five years that "normal" Air Farce folks live with. I was refused, due to my flat corneas.

The nice doctors (downtown, so I could sue them..as opposed to the Air Farce doctors that I can't sue under any circumstances) told me that of COURSE my corneas were flat, that was why my vision was 20/600 and 20/800 (right and left eye, respectively).

Go figure.

Went under the knife (err, laser....frikin' sharks with lasers...mmm...lasers...) six weeks ago. Was 20/15 the next morning. Drove to the doctor's office for the follow up. Wandered by DPS on the way home and got a new driver's license "without restriction."

Two weeks ago, I went in for the 30-day follow up. 20/10.

No light sensitivity.

Some haloing at night; that effect has been diminishing with time and is almost gone now (six weeks later).

I noticed that the dot in my C-More isn't exactly round. I also noticed that turn arrow lights are composed of little LED's. I didn't know that. I didn't know that tree bark was viewable in three dimensions. I didn't know that walking around in the rain was kinda fun when you can see without a film of water on your glasses. Swimming is much more entertaining.

Actual results may vary, not for the other use, keep out of children.

But I'd do it again. Liota is scraping up money to have it done, too.

Alex

[Mistral404]

Wakal,

Glad to hear about your success. Everytime I hear a story like yours I am tempted to go under the laser. I am stil a tad bit apprehensive. But your success makes me wonder.

tks

[jef]

LASIK is an area where you certainly get what you pay for. Be very skeptical of the clinics offering $299 per eye. I drove 5 hours to Salt Lake City for one such offer, only to find the clinic had all of the ambience and professionality (I just made this word up!) of a tatoo parlor on Victory Drive outside of Fort Benning. Needless to say I opted out with no regrets! This technology is constantly evolving, so the longer one can wait, the better ones results will be. I am still biding my time in soft lens contacts, maybe some day circumstances will force me to reconsider, but I definetly will not do business with the low bidder! (another lesson learned on Victory Drive outside of Fort Benning!)

[rkgsmith]

Brian, I have much the same problem with my contacts as you. I see clearly with my eye glasses but have a blured front sight with contacts. I am also leary of the Lasik surgery. I just went the simple route and shoot with my glasses. I figure I have to wear some type of eye protection so whats the diff.

[schoonie]

How does the mono vision setup work out?

With the dominant eye focused close up and the other focused far away, the shooter obviously must keep both eyes open. Looking at the target with the off eye and then shifting to the dominant eye to see the sight would seem to create a shift in the sight picture. Is there any shifting of dominance between the eyes when looking at the sights or targets, or is there only one apparent sight picture?

Getting old and blind really bites!

[Mistral404]

Mono vision is using one eye for up close work; reading, front sight focus etc. and the other eye for distance; reading signs while driving a car, etc. The brain takes over and allows the eye with the best visioin provide the best picture. You can get LASIK done in mono vision but I would not recommend it.

I started with mono vision long before I started shooting pistols, so my dominant eye is my left eye used for distance work and my right eye is used for reading. So this works out ok if I am shooting a rifle with iron sights but totally sucks for pistol work.

So I went to my eye physican and told him I wanted to be able to see clearly 4.5 inches past my knuckle on my right hand. So now I have a lower power in my left dominant eye which brings the sight picture of the front sight almost crystal clear. Indoors and in bad light with a lens that is two weeks old does present a more fuzzy picture.

So I just shoot with both eyes open and the left dominant eye takes over and things are pretty ok. Occaisionally, I screw it up and have to close my right eye for a second. Now to really mess things up, sometimes on percision shots close by I will close my left eye and shoot with my right eye. With mixed results.

I did a plate rack at 25 yards recently using both techniques. I shot better with the left eye than the right eye.

I am about ready to experiment with the power factors again. I might lower the left eye .25 to make the front sight crystal clear all the time. Lens are cheap and what the heck, anything I can to do to improve the sight picture is a good thing.

[uscbigdawg]

Matt Burkett did a great article on this for Front Sight a year or two ago. He explained his own eye issues and the steps he took to help eliminate them. Might be something to look into. If you contact USPSA, I'm sure that they would send you a copy of the article. Too, you can contact Matt at matt@mattburkett.com.

Alex, glad to hear your surgery turned out so well and hope the same for Liota. My cousin is in the Air Force and is landing at Travis AFB next week for his surgery. Hopefully it works out. I've considered it, with my astigmatism, but think I'll hold off a little longer. My vision is about 20/40 but knowing it was once 20/15 really puts a downer on things. We've got a lot of the top doc's in the country in northern California and with one of them being an IPSC shooter, he keeps us pretty well informed on all the new/cool things that they're doing. Now if I can just work out some of kind of a shooter's discount things would be perfect!

Good luck in finding the answer to your questions.

Rich

[bountyhunter]

I warned the Dr. ahead of time that I wanted to bring in a gun and have her measure for a shooting lens so I could focus on the front sight.

You can just bring in a standard business card and hold it at arm's length. When you can read the tiny print, you got it.

[bountyhunter]

How does the mono vision setup work out?

With the dominant eye focused close up and the other focused far away, the shooter obviously must keep both eyes open. Looking at the target with the off eye and then shifting to the dominant eye to see the sight would seem to create a shift in the sight picture. Is there any shifting of dominance between the eyes when looking at the sights or targets, or is there only one apparent sight picture?

Getting old and blind really bites!

If you are nearsighted, it's possible to use mono vision such that when your eyes are relaxed, the left eye is adjusted for distance and sees the target clearly. The right eye will se thensights pretty clearly. So, with both eyes open,. you see a pretty clear sight image floating over a clear target image. There is a shift of "brain focus" between the two images. In other words, you pay atention to the sight image to aligne the gun then pay attention to the target image to get the final position before firing. My brain seems to not get confused by two images, but some people don't like it.

[schoonie]

Mistral404 & Bounty Hunter,

Thanks for the info. I'm going to experiment with the monovision setup and see what happens!

[Jim Norman]

I wear Varilux all the time. I cannot stand the thought of putting in eyedrops let alone contacts. I can read without my glasses and have been told that that will go away with the Lasik.

What I did was to order RB3 Rudys and Varlilux lenses. Working with my optometrist we relocated the center of the prescription a bit to suit my particular shooting style. So far it has made all the difference. Takes a few seconds to get used to since the distance area is in a slightly different place than my regular glasses.

Works for me and I don't have to worry about bad surgical results. At least not for a few years, cateracts will eventually rear their ugly reality and then I will have to do something radical.

Jim

[BDH]

FWIW, I had Lasik surgery a couple of years ago. I doubt that I would do it again. I went to one of the best, most respected, and most expensive surgeons around (his claim, is that all the other eye Docs across the Country fly in to have him do them). Anyway, I don't wear glasses anymore but my vision remains inconsistent. At times it is great. At other times, I am crawling up in front of the 35" (or worse, my really big projection TV) to read the print going across the screen at the bottom of Headline News.

I know a ton of people that rave about Lasik, but it doesn't always work out. The only other thing I will say is that my wife was saving her $$$'s for Lasik since she has also worn glasses for a couple decades. After watching me squint, or ask her what 'that road sign said' she has decided to keep her glasses, and put the money into a bathroom remodel.......

Not trying to be a downer, just one person's experience........

[hoser]

Denise and I both had Lasik surgery with great success. However, as others have stated, every case is different and results, even with respected doctors can vary.

Would I do it again? In a heartbeat, 20/400 to 20/15 is fantastic.

Arnie

[bberkley]

We have an optometrist that shoots at our matches periodically, and I talked to him about this. He suggested a .75 diopter + correction for my dominant eye, which would change my focal point to about 8-12 inches in front of my extended hand.

I've been wearing glasses since middle-school, and contacts since 1986. I'm inclined to go see Teplik here in Oregon for Lasik, as I would so much like to not have to fumble about for glasses in the morning when I wake up.

[Michael Carlin]

I had "Custom LASIK" 7 Oct last year.

Previous mildly to moderately myopic, with similar degree of astimatism,

20/200 in left 20/400 in right.

Had to have a "touch up" to adjust a slight "over corrected" left eye. Now have near 20/10 left eye and 20/18 maybe 20/20 right.

Astimatism corrected things are rounder, squarer, etc.

Was out to the Racine County Line Rifle Club range today watching the barrel maker (Obermeyer) start the outdoor season with 199-10 at 600 yards.

Could discern the shot disk in the target some of the time, could nearly always see the value disk, sometimes quite clearly.

Am 53 years 10 months old and can not clearly see a front sight in a service rifle nor a IPSC nora Bullseye (one hand, slightly longer eye relief). Can see fairly clearly the red dot on my wad gun and .22.

Would do it again in a heart beat. But I paid a great deal more than $299 per eye.

The next generation is a water jet instead of a laser, and should heal even faster.

By the way LASIK controlled by the computer indexes the eye 4000 times per second and only allows the "shot" if the "hold" will net an "X" (so to speak).

It also corrects six types of lens aberrations that we did not have math to describe until we fixed the Hubble. The most significant of these in my case was something called "coma" a sombrero like defect in the lens surface.

Three weeks ago I shot a few rounds at 1000 yards with an AR15 service rifle, 90 grain JLK bullets, 6.5 twist Pac-Nor, switchy wind and varying light conditions. After getting zeroed I stay in the 9,10 and X rings until the wind caught me, and then a couple times I stared at the sight too long. Not good to do that.

LASIK by reputable surgeons is very close to routinely near perfect, these days.

YMMV, JMHO, Proceed at your own risk, yada yada...

[Les Snyder]

While sorting out the pro's and cons of surgery, I had my optician (a friend that is a shooter) make me a pair of bi focal glasses with the near vision correction ground in the upper 1/4 inch or so of the lens... as I tilt my head when I shoot....I did this with the dominant eye but just the far vision prescription without bifocal in the weak eye. I realize that was a mistake and should have had the regular prescription in it with the bifocal in the regular (lower) place.... the glasses work well for pistol and rifle (I shoot a 1.5 x 16 ACOG) but a little confusing with the shotgun as I have to raise my head a little.... still working on it, but I think I need to have the normal bifocal in the weak eye... regards

[Jim Norman]

Les,

I have commented on this in another place on the forum, but it bears repeating, maybe.

I wear Varilux, I suppose any variable you are comfortable with is OK. I have the "Comfort Channel" that is a medioum wide variation pathway. A poor explaination, but the best I can do. What I did for my shooting glasses was to have the perscription center moved UP 3mm in both lenses. I can see everything just fine, but a little less than perfectly sharp if I hold my head level, when I tip my head forward to the position I hold it while I shoot, I am seeing through that part of the lense that focuses the sights, too see clearly at distance I have to tip my head a bit farther forward.

So far it has made a world of difference in pistol, we shall see about rifle, perhaps as early as Saturday. In dryfire, it hass been good. The reason I did this rather than one close, one far, was that often times you have to shoot on the off side with a rifke or a shotgun and having the mixed prescription would definately mess with that.

[Chutist]

As with anything there will be good results and not so good.

I had a long talk with Matt Burkett about it when I took a class from him. I ended up looking for something like 3 more years before I pulled the trigger.

To me the MOST important thing is the skill of the Dr. I looked around and found two guys in the US that I would let do mine. The one I went with was Dr. Tom Tooma. He was part of the FDA trials for the machines and was the Dr. that TRAINED the other Dr.'s. He had done Tiger Woods and a bunch of the Lakers.

Some of the machines are better at some Rx's than other's. When I had mine done there were two "approved machines" and one under FDA trials. He had ALL THREE in his office and could use the machine he thought was best. I was 20/400 and I'm 20/15 4 years post op.

FWIW

Tom Tooma, M.D.

Refractive Laser Centre

3501 Jamboree #1100

Newport Beach, CA 92660

Phone: (714) 854-6400

[Les Snyder]

Jim... thanks for the info... this was my second pair of glasses with bifocal lenses, and we moved the bifocal up almost to mid lens.... I works well for me in this location, especially at school.... My optician friend thought it would be a good idea to skip the varilux until I was more accustomed to wearing bifocals.

Have you tried to get a pair of polycarbonate lenses ground with an asthigmatism correction.... I've had 3 opticians try, but were not successful with any... Two were with a straight lens, and the third was for an insert with a wrap-around lens.....I think the optical density of the polycarbonate is different, and the wrap around really messes them up... guess the idea would to take a pair of clear wrap arounds and wear them while the prescription was being determined....

Have you tried Lutein?... a carotenoid food supplement.... has really improved my vision.... has worked for some friends, others not to that degree... regards