pwalker Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I need to buy a new gun. Why? Because, the registration papers on my old Glock 17, while OK domestically, do not allow me to easily travel internationally with it. Best solution: sell old G17, buy new one, make sure new papers match serial number on new gun .... Why not just get the existing papers corrected? Because it is just too difficult. I shoot IPSC production (international rules not USPSA). I have been shooting a Glock 17 for about a year. I am very happy with my Glock 17. So I decided that I would just sell the old one and buy a new Glock 17 to solve my registration paper problem. And then I thought, just before I do buy another Glock 17, I would ask the learned gentlemen and ladies of this forum for their opinions. What is the best gun for Production Division in IPSC? All opinions gratefully received. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Peter, Part of the reason I've never wanted to change from my G-34s is that I didn't want to lose all that time and all those rounds on target of experience, in addition to all the work that went into polishing and tuning and load development.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Peter, This has been discussed already on these forums, so you could benefit from the search function . However, to answer your question: in short, IMO the G17 is the best suited gun for IPSC PD. (I shoot one too, after having shot some other guns first). - Constant trigger pull, no DA/SA transition - No manual safety - Fixed sights (yes I consider that an advantage !) - Light weight (easy transitioning) - Grip that fits my hand, giving a natural index - High Magazine Capacity - High Reliability - Plenty Accuracy - Low price I'm sure that I'm forgetting a few reasons now, but do a search and you will come up with more info on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Peter, I suspect your question is not what you intended to ask. IMO, you are thorn between the logical decision to stick with what you have learned to master, and the desire to start again the fires of passion with a new gun. Looks like the question you should be asking is "should I be buying a new gun (in addition to the G17) or not"? Now that the right question has been asked, we all can answer (and the answer is already in your subconscious). YES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I think the Smith & Wesson 5906 is worth a look if it's available where you live. I modified Garfield's list to match the 5906: - the best double action trigger pull (in my opinion) of its kind - subsequent shots are a short, single action press - very short trigger reset ... almost as short as a 1911 - easier to reach the trigger than a Glock for people with short fingers - No need to use the manual safety except as a decocker after you load and make ready - Plenty of weight ... makes recoil negligible, but not too heavy to do quick transitions - High Magazine Capacity - High Reliability - Plenty Accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Peter, I have been shooting a Glock 17 for about a year. I am very happy with my Glock 17. What am I missing here? Is this a trick question or are you stating what our British mates would say is "the bleedin' obvious"? Opinion: You've had enough Mai Tais for this week And I hope to finally meet you in Canberra next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigsaxdog Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 man, i gotta get another job, more $$$$. i wanna go shoot in canberra.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogiebb Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 for me its a cross between a G17 and the para lda p18 why? because the g 17 can fit 17 rounds in the mag (sometimes 18) and the para p18 (18 rnds) + 1 in the pipe.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSA 86-259 Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 Several years I shot with a Glock mod 21 and in 2001-2002 a Glock 17. I never had a good feeling with the Glock, maybe my fingers were to big to fit right to the trigger. Always I had trouble with the trigger. Now I am using a LDA 18 shot in 9x19 and a Walther P99 16 shot in 9x19. The big advantage of the LDA towards a Glock is: heavier, recoil is easier to control precision one shot extra very nice trigger, how fast can you be? big sights, correction possible (my eyes are getting older) The only advantage of a glock will be its cheap. The Dutch Champion in Production division bought the LDA after test firing my LDA gun. Since a few weeks he is shooting with it. He became Champion of 2003 with a CZ75, also a good choice except for its spare parts problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 30, 2004 Share Posted March 30, 2004 I don't know if the CZ is better than the Glock or not, nor do I know if it is marketing or not, but 10 million police guys and armies around the world might not be wrong... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I don't know if the CZ is better than the Glock or not, nor do I know if it is marketing or not, but 10 million police guys and armies around the world might not be wrong... I'd rather take exception on this: police guns and competition guns are not the same stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted March 31, 2004 Share Posted March 31, 2004 I shot IPSC PD with a CZ75 before buying my G17. They each have their (dis)advantages. What I particularly didn't like about the CZ for use in PD, was that I had to manually lower the hammer before each shot and the DA-SA transition. Apart from that, I still regret having had to sell it, especially since I had a very nice .22lr conversion kit with it too. There is no susch thing as "this is the best gun for this or that". It's what feels right for you, it's a personal thing ! Of course there are all kinds of technicalities that might give one gun a certain headstart compared to another, but that's mostly just under certain circumstances. All modern guns are accurate enough for IPSC purposes, so there's no real difference in that department. And as for results: it's the shooter that is responsible for 95% of the results. Like Arie said, current dutch IPSC PD champion "Iron guns rule" Gerben van Kalken beats me almost always with his CZ75. Does this prove that the CZ is a better gun ? Certainly not ! It just proves that Gerben is a better shooter than I am . So, listen to what other people say, think about it, try some weapons and then make your decision. And if that is to buy a G17 again like you have one now, so be it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted March 31, 2004 Author Share Posted March 31, 2004 Guys, Thanks for alll the responses. My "real" question was: "Is there some great Production Division gun out there that I have not heard of or tried yet?". Living in a non-mainstream-market like Thailand, I was not sure if we get to see all the new product releases. I got my answer. I'll see if I can find a S&W 5906 and a LDA 18 to play with. But I'll most likely stick with the G17... To respond to some specific points raised: Garfield: I did run 3 searches before I typed my question. Honest. My search revealed a couple of threads but none that specifically addressed my question. Vince: Can one ever have enough Mai Tais? Or Singhas? Vince: Unfortunately, I wont be in Canberra. I could not round up a Thai team. They were scared off by the 10 round mag issue. Plus everyone here is working hard in their businesses, now that the economy is doing well again. The THPSA committee have put me in charge of convincing you to come to Thailand for our next Level III in June. If not, surely we will meet in Bali... Garfield: We are on the same page. I agree that there is no one piece of perfect equipment. In my other interest, photography,I have used the same camera for the last 10 years, and the previous one for 15 years before then. Becoming comfortable with the use of the equipment is more important to me than having the latest and greatest. However, given the complication of a foreigner owning a gun in Thailand, I just wanted to be certain that I had all the information before making the buying decision. And where better to get that information than the esteemed members of this forum! Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Peter, if you are thinking of bringing a gun to Australia to shoot Production, then you will pretty much be restricted to the following: G17 with factory 122mm barrel . Beretta 92 Series. Tanfoglio XL2 or XL4 with factory 122mm barrel. Para LDA in 9mm. H&K USP with factory 122mm barrel. The S&W 59 series, CZ75/85, Sigs, etc are all short barreled guns and will not be legal to bring into OZ. In all honesty I don't see that much difference between the different makes. Ammo down range through one particular gun until you are familiar with it will surfice. On the other hand, buy whatever you want. I shoot Production with a G17. I also have a Beretta, I've just received my new Bul M5 standard gun from Peter Dawson, even though I've never shot a stage in standard, and I'll soon have my Standard and Open revolvers. Owning the toys is half the fun. Shooting them is the other half. Winning doubles it. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 This might be a thread drift, but I need to point out that CZ makes decocker guns, and thus the "manual decock" thing can be solved. And now for my question ... How is a CZ a short barrel gun?? What the heck is the limit?? According to the CZ website the barrel is 120mm. The Beretta 92 is listed as 119. What gives over there? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Actually my bad, Beretta are 125, the 119 number was for the Vertec/Elite guns. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 2, 2004 Share Posted April 2, 2004 Vlad, There were recent changes to Australian gun laws and the three key points are: 1. Minimum barrel length is now 120mm for pistols, 100mm for revolvers. 2. Maximum calibre for all handguns is 9mm. 3. Maximum magazine round capacity is now 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSA 86-259 Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 If I would travel to a match in Australia must I have magazines which only may contain 10 rounds or may I bring in my 18 shots magazine? Or in other words, if only 10 rounds magazines are allowed to take with me I have to buy them first? Will be very difficult because why should anyone in the Dutch region want to buy a 10 round mag if you may use the 18 round mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radagast Posted April 3, 2004 Share Posted April 3, 2004 Importation of high cap magazines is out for sporting shooters. Depending on the gun and the match, a loan of magazines could probably be arranged. I offered the chief sheep shagger (NZ RD) a gun and mags to get him over here when they wouldn't let him bring in his .40. No luck, he chickened out. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I shot IPSC PD with a CZ75 before buying my G17.They each have their (dis)advantages. What I particularly didn't like about the CZ for use in PD, was that I had to manually lower the hammer before each shot and the DA-SA transition. Apart from that, I still regret having had to sell it, especially since I had a very nice .22lr conversion kit with it too. There is no susch thing as "this is the best gun for this or that". It's what feels right for you, it's a personal thing ! Of course there are all kinds of technicalities that might give one gun a certain headstart compared to another, but that's mostly just under certain circumstances. All modern guns are accurate enough for IPSC purposes, so there's no real difference in that department. And as for results: it's the shooter that is responsible for 95% of the results. Like Arie said, current dutch IPSC PD champion "Iron guns rule" Gerben van Kalken beats me almost always with his CZ75. Does this prove that the CZ is a better gun ? Certainly not ! It just proves that Gerben is a better shooter than I am . So, listen to what other people say, think about it, try some weapons and then make your decision. And if that is to buy a G17 again like you have one now, so be it ! I shoot Production with a CZ 85 Combat. I really like the ergonomics and don't mind manualy lowering the hammer as long as the ROs don't get nervous about it. I also own a CZ Champion, and CZ ST IPSC, and a Kadet. All are great guns. But the 85 Combat has one huge problem - depending on the number of rounds remaining in the magazine, the magazine does not always fall out free if you need to eject it. The reason for that is that the top round is sometimes dragged forward during the last slide cycle. It is either the chambering round is dragging the next one along or that surface under the breech face does that, or both, but in any case you end up with a mag hanging because the top round reaches the top of the front wall of the mag well and seats there. I have polished that surface under the breech face, but if it made any difference, it is hardly noticable. Carlos suggested that part of that surface could be milled away - that would resemble what Glocks part configuration. I am leaning toward this solution but wanted to find out if anybody else has successfully done it before messing with this stuff. Any info, suggestions? Anybody can recommend a gunsmith that has done it before? Thanks. Vlad. ( By the way, this is the OTHER Vlad - not the one that posts under the "Vlad" screen name) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 dv8, I think this issue came up on Ron Ankeney's CZ. I dig up the thread soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soligen Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I've never had a stuck mag problem with my CZ85. Could it be the brand of Mag? Maybe if the mag were just a little taller in front, then the round would stop when it got to the front of the mag instead of going forward enough to casue a hang up. Not sure if that made sense, I'm a newbie, but have never experienced that problem with my CZ 85 combat. BTW, can you describe your procedure for manually decocking? My first match is this weekend, and I want to make sure I do it right. Thanks Soligen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Here is the thread that you will want ot read, and post on, with questions about the CZ mags dropping: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=8250&hl=cz+75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Flexmoney, That'd be great, I appreciate it. Soligen, I have tried several brands of mags - same story. I also tried the same mags in my Champion - no such problem at all, so most likely it is the gun problem and not the mags. I don't know if taller mag front would prevent this problem from happenning, but it sounds like it could. As for manual hammer lowering, the most important thing is to let the RO know that you are going to have to do this. Not all the ROs out there are well informed about this issue simply because these guns are not very common. If an RO doesn't want you to lower the trigger manualy, the only option you have is resolve the problem with Range Master, Match Director, CRO, or anyone else you can find at the match who have an authority to overrule the RO. Other than that, when I am given the Load and Make Ready command, I inceart a mag, rock the slide, and then make sure the RO is aware of what I am doing and not just chatting with his buddies back there. Then very deliberately lock my week hand thumb and index finger between the hammer and slide, pull and hold the trigger, and again very deliberately let the hammer all the way down in a fashion where I could stop the hammer movement at any moment if I needed to do that. Release the trigger. I practiced that for at least five hundred times with unloaded gun before I went to my first match with this gun. Be safe and good luck coming weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Here is the thread that you will want ot read, and post on, with questions about the CZ mags dropping:http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=8250&hl=cz+75 Flexmoney, Thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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