Forbidden (in)Action?

[MI_Packer]

From a match last week...

WSB start position states seated at table, gun unloaded on table, holding string with strong hand. At signal engage targets as they become visible.

Shooter 1 at signal pulls string activating swinger right in front of table. Swinger has one no shoot on it. He loads and engages targets as no shoot swings in front of him.

Shooter 2 at signal drops string, loads gun and engages targets.

RM is asked to require shooter #2 to reshoot. RM said shooter #2 is not required to reshoot.

RO changes WSB requiring shooter to pull string at signal. Remaining shooters pull string before engaging targets.

What's your ruling?

[Jon Merricks]

Scores for this stage should not be included in the results.

[racerba]

RO changes WSB requiring shooter to pull string at signal. Remaining shooters pull string before engaging targets.

If RO changed WSB and RM agrees with the change...shooter #2 must reshoot.

[sdm74]

You can't change rules once match is started

[racerba]

You can't change rules once match is started

Yes you can...

2.3.1

Edited March 24, 2011 by racerba

[Pro-Pain]

RO changes WSB requiring shooter to pull string at signal. Remaining shooters pull string before engaging targets.

If RO changed WSB and RM agrees with the change...shooter #2 must reshoot.

2.3.3 If the Range Master approves any such action after the match begins he

must either:

2.3.3.1 Allow the course of fire to continue with the modification affecting

only those competitors who have not already completed the

stage. If a competitor’s actions caused the change, that competitor

must be required to reshoot the altered course of fire; or

2.3.3.2 If possible, require all competitors to complete the course of fire

as revised with all previous attempts removed from the match

scores.

2.3.3.3 A competitor who refuses to reshoot a course of fire, under this

or any other section, when so ordered by a Range Official, will

receive a

[Gary Johnson]

If I understand your scenario correctly then two problems pop up, first, the RO made a change without approval of the RM, second, competitors 1 and 2 shot a different COF than everyone else causing a loss of competitive equity. The stage should have been withdrawn from the match.

From a match last week...

WSB start position states seated at table, gun unloaded on table, holding string with strong hand. At signal engage targets as they become visible.

Shooter 1 at signal pulls string activating swinger right in front of table. Swinger has one no shoot on it. He loads and engages targets as no shoot swings in front of him.

Shooter 2 at signal drops string, loads gun and engages targets.

RM is asked to require shooter #2 to reshoot. RM said shooter #2 is not required to reshoot.

RO changes WSB requiring shooter to pull string at signal. Remaining shooters pull string before engaging targets.

What's your ruling?

[sdm74]

You can't change rules once match is started

Yes you can...

2.3.1

Wow..did not know that. Doesn't seem like a good rule, unless there is a safety issue

Edited March 24, 2011 by sdm74

[mactiger]

You can't change rules once match is started

Yes you can...

2.3.1

Wow..did not know that. Doesn't seem like a good rule, unless there is a safety issue

Well, it's technically not a "rules" change, it's a procedure change. Level one matches can require an activated target to be activated prior to shooting at the target, but the best way to do this is to make it automatic somehow.

In this case, seems like the RM made a bad decision, compounded by the RO then making WSB changes either without the RM's knowledge or approval, or if he did approve it, then shooter 2 needed to reshoot.

Per the OP's original WSB description, though, the string didn't have to be pulled at all.

Troy

[LT45]

From a match last week...

WSB start position states seated at table, gun unloaded on table, holding string with strong hand. At signal engage targets as they become visible.

Shooter 1 at signal pulls string activating swinger right in front of table. Swinger has one no shoot on it. He loads and engages targets as no shoot swings in front of him.

Shooter 2 at signal drops string, loads gun and engages targets.

RM is asked to require shooter #2 to reshoot. RM said shooter #2 is not required to reshoot.

RO changes WSB requiring shooter to pull string at signal. Remaining shooters pull string before engaging targets.

What's your ruling?

This is a perfect example of a stage designer leaving a hole in the WSB big enough for shooter #2 to drive a truck through.

The RM was right to not allow the reshoot.

The RO's change of the WSB lost the competitive equity of the stage..

That stage should have been tossed out of the match.

[sdm74]

Yes but what if that was third or fourth squad on that stage?

Btw. When did the shooter actually pull cord to activate prop? If you still have to pull cord, why would it matter if you pulled it first or later?

Edit..I see prop only had no shoot..I wouldn't have pulled it either..lol

Edited March 24, 2011 by sdm74

[racerba]

You can't change rules once match is started

Yes you can...

2.3.1

Wow..did not know that. Doesn't seem like a good rule, unless there is a safety issue

It's a good rule when you have one person coming to the line and finding a way to shoot a stage (or a way to really game the stage) differently than what most of the competitors did and totally unexpectedly and gained a really significant advantage. That way, only one person has to reshoot instead of the entire competitor's list. It could pertain to safety as well.

[sdm74]

You can't change rules once match is started

Yes you can...

2.3.1

Wow..did not know that. Doesn't seem like a good rule, unless there is a safety issue

It's a good rule when you have one person coming to the line and finding a way to shoot a stage (or a way to really game the stage) differently than what most of the competitors did and totally unexpectedly and gained a really significant advantage. That way, only one person has to reshoot instead of the entire competitor's list. It could pertain to safety as well.

Thought that was the point. To always try to get the best advantage you can. If guy A figures out somthing that guy B did not. I would think that's his loss.

[EEH]

Yes but what if that was third or fourth squad on that stage?

Btw. When did the shooter actually pull cord to activate prop? If you still have to pull cord, why would it matter if you pulled it first or later?

Edit..I see prop only had no shoot..I wouldn't have pulled it either..lol

If by pulling the string no scoring target appeared,,I would not have pulled the string,,the stage desc.did not say you had to pull it,as for other people gaming the stage-well that happens on every stage,as soon as I shoot a stage I always say dam wish I'd thought of that--

[racerba]

Thought that was the point. To always try to get the best advantage you can. If guy A figures out somthing that guy B did not. I would think that's his loss.

Not when there's a "significant" advantage (i.e. saving half the time than what you would have done it in). I'm all for finding advantages, but when you skirt a procedural that was meant to be done and the course designer mistakenly omitted it in the WSB, NO!

[steel1212]

I wouldn't have pulled the string, it doesn't say I have to in the WSB. What that means is that the 1st shooter didn't think of it or didn't pay attention to the WSB and was told by the RO that they had to pull the string when they didn't. When the RO figured this out, when shooter 2 shot it, the RO wanted it changed. Basically, the stage briefing was written poorly. I've done it before, written poor stage briefings, and you take it as a learning lesson and move on. You don't change stages, unless for safety concerns, mid match. If it was the first couple of shooters, fix the problem then reshoot them and fix the WSB. If your the second squad shoot it as is.

[sdm74]

Thought that was the point. To always try to get the best advantage you can. If guy A figures out somthing that guy B did not. I would think that's his loss.

Not when there's a "significant" advantage (i.e. saving half the time than what you would have done it in). I'm all for finding advantages, but when you skirt a procedural that was meant to be done and the course designer mistakenly omitted it in the WSB, NO!

True, but you cannot go by what was "meant".

[JAFO]

This is slightly off-topic, but it's related to the intended stage procedure and it's possible results.

When I started designing stages, I was encouraged to try to avoid using moving paper no-shoots due to the difficulty in determining whether a no-shoot hit ended up on the paper target. I'm assuming that grease rings are the only way you would be able to determine this, barring the scorekeeper actually seeing the hit. I've not paid much attention to the presence or absence of grease rings in the past, probably since we try to avoid situations that require them to be used, I guess. Are they reliable enough to use them for something like this? Specifically, I'm thinking of situations where the bullet impacts the scoring target in an area that has already been hit and taped multiple times. This could be especially true toward the end of a match after two dozen shooters have gone through. Will the grease ring (or lack thereof) still be obvious?

[MoNsTeR]

I wouldn't have pulled the string, it doesn't say I have to in the WSB. What that means is that the 1st shooter didn't think of it or didn't pay attention to the WSB and was told by the RO that they had to pull the string when they didn't. When the RO figured this out, when shooter 2 shot it, the RO wanted it changed. Basically, the stage briefing was written poorly. I've done it before, written poor stage briefings, and you take it as a learning lesson and move on. You don't change stages, unless for safety concerns, mid match. If it was the first couple of shooters, fix the problem then reshoot them and fix the WSB. If your the second squad shoot it as is.

My thoughts exactly.

When I was designing stages every week, I got gamed a few times. Laugh it off, and do better next time.

[Pro-Pain]

Thought that was the point. To always try to get the best advantage you can. If guy A figures out somthing that guy B did not. I would think that's his loss.

Not when there's a "significant" advantage (i.e. saving half the time than what you would have done it in). I'm all for finding advantages, but when you skirt a procedural that was meant to be done and the course designer mistakenly omitted it in the WSB, NO!

It doesn't look like you're saving all that time, just making the COF harder. In your description, it says shooter A engages while the no shoot swings into place. As it's swinging still seems to be a somewhat quick shot.

There are many MANY stages that require weird starts, hold a pizza box, hold letters, hold something. It doesn't require you to do anything after the start signal but drop them, POSSIBLY shooter B thought this was just some kind of crazy start? If he was the 2nd shooter, and loading mags, etc while Shooter A started shooting maybe he didn't even know it was connected to a no-shoot?

Reaching, but you never know. I agree with the no re-shoot. I don't agree with changing the COF mid match because of a poorly written WSB. Let everyone keep going and if you re-use the stage, make sure you include it.

OR have the shooter hold a string in every stage of the match, only require them to pull it in half of them

[MI_Packer]

Yes but what if that was third or fourth squad on that stage?

Btw. When did the shooter actually pull cord to activate prop? If you still have to pull cord, why would it matter if you pulled it first or later?

Edit..I see prop only had no shoot..I wouldn't have pulled it either..lol

Shooter 2 never pulled the string. All other shooters pulled it before engaging targets.

[MI_Packer]

If he was the 2nd shooter, and loading mags, etc while Shooter A started shooting maybe he didn't even know it was connected to a no-shoot?

Shooter 2 was loading mags! He did not see shooter one run the COF - but he knew it was attached to a no shoot on a swinger.

edit for poor spelling.

Edited March 24, 2011 by MI_Packer

[MI_Packer]

True, but you cannot go by what was "meant".

Shooter 2 knew what was meant and what was written in the WSB.

[Skydiver]

But still, nothing in the original WSB said that the string must be pulled. I don't think 9.9.3 applies either for failure to activate the mechanism since there is no scoring target on the swinger.

[CHA-LEE]

These kind of stage issues become non issues when everyone starts to understand that there is no such thing as an “Intended Way” to shoot a stage. USPSA is a Freestyle shooting game. Shooters are empowered to shoot the stage how ever they want. The only requirements to follow are the ones listed in the WSB. If a significant advantage can be exploited by the lack of a properly documented stage procedure then too bad, so sad for the stage designer. Designing solid stages with solid stage procedures is a skill that needs to be honed just like any other. We don’t get a “do over” when we screw up while shooting stages. The stage designers shouldn’t get a “do over” for the WSB’s they screw up. Obviously safety issues are a different story.

I stopped creating stages long ago with a specific “Intended way” of how it should be shot. I found that every time I created a stage with a particular intended way of shooting it I would end up with other overlooked issues, such as shoot throughs, 180 issues, or poorly worded stage procedures. Now I tackle stage design from a shooting challenge and safety perspective. I setup specific shooting challenges in different area’s of the stage and then work towards eliminating conflicts or safety issues between the different shooting challenges. That way my only “intent” for the stage is that the targets are able to be engaged in a safe manner no matter how the shooter wants to navigate it.