Hornady’s solution to my priming issues.

[98sr20ve]

Problem……

LnL is not seating primers deep enough. CCI primers. Yes, everything is set up right no large dimple in the frame.

Hornady’s solution……

I think Hornady is trying to make things right with my LnL priming issues. I talked with them Monday last week in detail about my issues. 8 days later this box shows up. Normally it takes 3-4 days so I was thinking/hoping that I actually was getting something special to solve this problem. When I opened the box most the items were expected but for some reason there was a new sub-plate in the box. I didn’t ask for a sub-plate, I asked them to send me a longer primer punch. After looking things over a little closer it’s obvious that they feel the sub-plate is the solution. Pictures speak louder than words but I will explain what you’re looking at so you can see the differences. Basically, the new sub-plate has a deeper machined grove (all the way around the base) that the primer punch screws into. This raises the punch higher so the primers should seat deeper. It also puts the primer punch a lot closer to primer slider. Basically, it’s right under the slider, almost touching. The new machined area is .070” deep, the old one was .035” deep. Basically it’s going to allow the primer punch to go up an extra .035” higher.

Old primer punch picture from below.

New primer punch and deeper grove from below.

Old top view of primer punch. Old one is chamfered around the primer punch.

New top view of primer punch. Notice it’s much close to the top. Notice it is not chamfered around the punch at all.

Old sub-plate with a dimple right next to the ez-ezect knob.

New sub-plate with no dimple next to ez-eject knob.

Old plate is stamped with 398309R 2D under the primer slider, New one has 398309R 1D.

That’s it. Not sure if they custom made this or not. Others should be able to tell if theirs is machined like my new one by comparing how high the primer punch is to the slider. My new one is pratctically touching and does not have a chamfer around the hole/nut.

I will get this stuff installed and report the difference ASAP. I am very curious if other peoples LnL sub-plate looks like my old one or my new one.

[highxj]

I just checked mine out Steve, and it looks like your new one in all respects. The primer punch is nearly flush like yours to the subplate, no dimple, no big chamfer, and the primer punch assembly looks to be .060"-.070" below flush on the bottom of the subplate using a machinists rule. I did not check the numbers.

I got my machine just a couple weeks ago....

Dan

[98sr20ve]

Interesting thanks for posting that.

[S391]

Very interesting. I've had my LnL for a year or more so I'll have to take a look when I get home tonight.

Thanks for sharing.

[98sr20ve]

I fired 200rds made with the new sub-plate. All of them fired. So problem seems to be solved.

I also fired 100 from a previous batch. Had one light strike.

It is taking more pressure to seat the primer then it did with my 550.

[98sr20ve]

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17107280#post17107280

I am not going to update this thread with for a while. Thats the link if you want to follow things at all. I am sending the press back. I solved my FTF but it takes so much force that to me the press is just not worth owning. They are going to look at the priming pressure. They are going to look at why the cases are tipping. Read the other thread before you assume it's a setup issue. Hopefully it will come back working.

[Shadowrider]

I wish you luck with it. I gave up on mine. The LNL press has some very good features that I miss, but I just don't have the time to finish seating my primers with a hand priming tool. Kind of defeats the purpose of a progressive press in my mind anyway.

Like you, I couldn't find anything at all actually wrong with mine. The seating punch would come up well into the primer pocket of an unprimed case. The shell plate didn't have an enormous amount of flex, etc. What I think is wrong with the LNL press is the fact that the ram is so enormously huge, requiring the compound links to be too widely spaced, which puts the attachment point of the handle a long ways from the centerline of the ram. When I would seat a primer the leverage would twist the ENTIRE assembly (links, handle, ram, everything) around the axis of the ram thereby wasting the force applied to the primer seating punch. In other words, the entire lower assembly was just deflecting off of the priming force I applied to the handle. Hornady tried to make it right, I'll give them that. But I'm in that club. The one that tried almost everything before going to a Dillon 650. Wish I had just ponied up the extra dollars the 1st time, I'd have been money ahead! So now I'm a permanent member of the "Been There, Done It, Got The T-Shirt Club of Blue Kool-Aid Drinkers"...

[roadapple]

98sr20ve, Shadowrider,

I have been having these exact same problems. Hornady sent a new large primer punch assembly, and that did not work (same results, primer not fully seating). I tried adjusting the timing by adjusting the pawls, that did not correct the problem. I worked on the press while I had the Hornady tech on the phone. I tried everything he suggested. Same results. The Hornady tech said that he had never heard of this issue before, even though I had found many forum posts dealing with this. Hornady sent a new subplate. I compared it to the old one and found the same things you found except there is no dimple next to the ezject knob on either subplate. I will install the new subplate when time allows. Hopefully, I can get this thing working right, and not have to send it back to Hornady. I ordered a Dillon 550 from Brian today. I have used the 550 before at some of my friend's places. I am sure I will like the 550, but I am determined to get the LnL to work. I have too much invested in it now i.e. casefeeder, seven shellplates, 25 LnL bushings, 4 PTX expanders, two rifle micro-metering inserts, two pistol micro-metering inserts, an RCBS powder check die, and some work-arounds (had to press a empty .38 Spl case on to the adjustment nut on the rod that actuates the pivot block for the case feeder. The rod assembly was too short, screwed all the way out, to move the pivot block to drop the next case onto the subplate), and de-bur the ezject button to keep loaded cases from hanging up, and not ejecting. It has been frustrating, because everything else on the press seems to work fine. The case feeder does not want to turn with more than 50 cases in it at a time (I did adjust the clutch mechanism on the case feeder plate), but it feeds the empty cases almost perfectly. The spent primers go right down the tube into the trash, leaving no mess, just like they are supposed to. The primer shuttle presents a new primer right over the ram smoothly, and reliably. The case activated powder measure throws almost perfect weights of powder (Win 231) every time. The PTX expanders put a perfect flare on the case mouths of the pistol cases. The press indexes as smooth as I have ever seen, and does not spill powder from the cases. Bullets seat perfectly, using a Hornady seating die, and then crimp perfectly using a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I have no trouble removing a case from anywhere in the process to check powder charge (good everytime) or primer seating (will not seat below flush. Some won't seat quite to flush). Like I said, I will love this machine if I can get the primers to seat properly. I might just leave the Hornady configured for small primers (If I can get it working right), and leave the Dillon configured for large primers. I am blessed with enough space to mount them both. I will re-post when I have an answer.

Good luck,

Jim

[Jungo2]

FYI, I just received my LNL AP from Midwayusa about 2 weeks ago. It has the updated sub-plate pictured above. It's therefore reasonable to assume that this new sub-plate is standard issue with the newer presses.

[roadapple]

I took the new subplate out of the packaging and upon inspection, decided to send it back to Hornady. It will not only not solve my problem, and it has machining and tool marks on it. It looks like it was dropped on the floor or something. The machining is sloppy, and the place where the case-feeder shuttle runs has burrs and casting flaws that will not allow the case-feeder shuttle to move on it. I don't expect Hornady's quality control was at work the day this thing was made. I'm sending it back. Maybe they can melt it back down and re-pour it. I'm waiting for my RL550b to arrive, so I can get to work making the ammo I need. Right now, I'm loading on a single-stage (it's a Forster Co-ax). It's a very good press, but it's still slow. I am going to try adjusting the timing on the L-N-L until something works. If not, maybe I'll get a machinist to look at it. I do not believe sending it back Hornady will solve the problem. The tech there kept telling me that, " If you say it's doing that, I believe you." He also said he has never heard of the Lock-n-load having this problem before. I am frustrated with this primer problem.

Please pass the Blue Kool-Aid. Where do I get the t-shirt? I probably need a sign to wear on my head as well.

Edited April 30, 2011 by roadapple

[rooster cogburn]

Go Blue and you are through!

[dsmw5142]

I just received and set up my 2nd LNL the other day. Loaded a few hundred .45's on it with wolf primers. Doesn't seem to be any high primer issue, but I'll let you know for sure after I test them out.

[roadapple]

I just received and set up my 2nd LNL the other day. Loaded a few hundred .45's on it with wolf primers. Doesn't seem to be any high primer issue, but I'll let you know for sure after I test them out.

I sure hope it works well for you. Mine seems to have machining issues.

[roadapple]

My Dillon 550 came in today! Thanks, Brian! I mounted it to my bench, adjusted everything, and started making ammo. I have loaded more this evening with the 550, than I did the past 4 months with the L-N-L. Having a casefeeder and auto indexing is not much good if your machine will not prime the cases properly. I should have listened to the Dillon folks. I started thinking there may be some snobbery, due to a lot of posts I read in several different forums. I apologize to all the Dillon folks for not taking your word on a very good machine. For the Hornady folks, I am glad your press is working right for you. I am not trying to re-ignite the Blue vs. Red debate. I am just saying that I have a press that works great for me. Thanks for all of your help!

Jim

[BigBore56]

I got tired of loading ammo that was missing primers also. I had to dremel some of the shell holder slots that were too tight for .45 ACP. Very inconsistant machine work on my LNL-AP. Indexer would jam about every 35 rounds and had to be "helped" to next notch.

I sold the LNL-AP and will be ordering a XL650 next.

[98sr20ve]

Hornady gave me ALL my money back that I spent on my LnL. I now have a 650. It works perfectly.

[roadapple]

I spoke to a Hornady Tech Rep. today. We went over the most common causes of the primer system not seating the primers past flush. It turns out that the retainer spring has a very small kink in it (I knew it was there, but did not occur to me that it could cause this problem). I had ordered replacement springs some time back, because this was a part that got commonly ruined by the press operator. I put one of the new springs on the shellplate, and now it seats the small pistol primers to just a little (very little) past flush. This will work in my .38 Special. I have yet to try large pistol primers, but I think they will work. I'll post when I try them.

I hope this information is useful to everyone that's having this problem.

Thanks for all the help.

Jim

[mizer67]

I spoke to a Hornady Tech Rep. today. We went over the most common causes of the primer system not seating the primers past flush. It turns out that the retainer spring has a very small kink in it (I knew it was there, but did not occur to me that it could cause this problem). I had ordered replacement springs some time back, because this was a part that got commonly ruined by the press operator. I put one of the new springs on the shellplate, and now it seats the small pistol primers to just a little (very little) past flush. This will work in my .38 Special. I have yet to try large pistol primers, but I think they will work. I'll post when I try them.

I hope this information is useful to everyone that's having this problem.

Thanks for all the help.

Jim

My LNL also won't seat primers flush. I get 1 in 10 that won't seat properly (CCI SP, SR, 41s, Wolf/Tula SP, SR, Rem 7 1/2s) and unless I go back through with a hand priming tool and reseat them all I'll get light strikes, particularly with my handguns.

Anyone have a fix from Hornady that worked for them for this issue?

I've spoken with them at length and been unable to resolve this issue with parts swaps and tech tips.

[98sr20ve]

Did you get the sub-plate with the recessed primer cutout so that your punch is higher? That's the only thing that will help.

For the record. After setting up the 650, using the same brass and primers as on the LnL the 650 seated them easily and far deeper. LnL never would seat anything below flush.

[roadapple]

Did you get the sub-plate with the recessed primer cutout so that your punch is higher? That's the only thing that will help.

For the record. After setting up the 650, using the same brass and primers as on the LnL the 650 seated them easily and far deeper. LnL never would seat anything below flush.

Yes, the LNL will not seat primers below flush. I think it has to do with the angle/geometry of the linkage. The primer punch will insert into the primer pocket of a de-primed case far enough to hold the case fast, and keep the shellplate from moving. One of the Hornady Techs stated that the primer punch should seat the primer one, or two, thousandths of an inch below flush. I am still fiddling with it when I have time. Meanwhile, I have the 550 to load what I require. The .38 Special rounds seat flush, and they have worked so far. If I were Hornady, I would want to know about the problems being reported to their techs. I would be making it right, re-engineering the product, and re-training the techs so my customers would have a great product. I will keep looking for solutions, because I have too much tied-up in this LNL system to send it back. There are many LNL owners out there that say their machines have no problem at all. Maybe Hornady should pull one of their machines, and one of the problem machines, and do a comparison to find the fault in the non-conforming machines. If I were Hornady, I would feel compelled to do this. I would not want any defective product out there with my name on it.

[98sr20ve]

I know it sucks. I was told by a bunch of people that own LnL's that they are great. Now I find out their standards are different or that they have/had the same issues I had. I am glad Hornady gave me my money back. I just couldn't trust that press for match ammo.

[roadapple]

I know it sucks. I was told by a bunch of people that own LnL's that they are great. Now I find out their standards are different or that they have/had the same issues I had. I am glad Hornady gave me my money back. I just couldn't trust that press for match ammo.

Almost all of the LNL owners I talked to said the same thing; that they love them. Some of them did admit to having high primer problems, and going through the same trouble-shooting steps with Hornady's techs. I think you are right about LNL owners standards being different. It looks like they think "flush is enough." It might be for some applications. I wish they had been more open about the priming issues. The only reason I can think of, for them defending the press, is that they are really defending their "choice" of press, and do not want to admit they made a mistake. What bothers me most is Hornady's techs acting like they never heard of the problem before, and talking to me like I am expecting too much of their equipment. I am confused . I thought that any product that did not meet standards, would not be on the market long. Hornady, Midway, Cabelas, Graffs, etc. can't keep them in stock. I like Hornady's powder measures, the bushing system, the indexing of the shellplate, their dies, and most of their equipment. I do not understand why they would risk losing their reputation over a progressive press design that is faulty. Maybe Hornady thinks that seating primers just flush, and having to load slowly (and check every case after it is primed) is "good enough." I wish I had known about the all of the trouble before-hand. I would have never bought the LNL. Now, I have way too much invested in it to come out anywhere near even if I were to sell it. I can use it for case prep... I am going to keep working on it when I have time. If I ever get it to seat primers below flush consistantly, I will be happy with what I have. In the mean time, I am going to invest the money I was going to invest in the LNL, in Dillon equipment. I know the 550 works correctly. While I might purchase a Lee classic turret (or maybe even a Redding T-7 turret (for small side work)) in the future, I am sure I will invest in a Dillon Super 1050 (or two). I am equally sure I will NOT be buying any more of Hornady's presses. I'm not upset with them enough to not buy any of their other products. Hornady makes some very good products and I will not deprive myself of them. I do not know much about RCBS' progressive presses, but I have an old JR 2 that I have reloaded thousands of rounds on. When I pulled the old RCBS JR out of a box that was left out under a shed for many years, I thought I might have to completely replace it. The handle, toggle block, primer arm, and various small parts were covered in scale rust. I e-mailed RCBS and asked them what they would charge to refurbish the press. They informed me that they do not reburbish presses, and asked me what parts I needed. I listed the parts, and they said they (the parts) were on their way to me. I asked for the bill, and they told me there is not charge. I explained that the press was messed-up because of MY neglect, and I was more than willing to pay for the parts. RCBS told me there is no charge, regardless of how the press was damaged. They would not let me even pay for the shipping. RCBS's warranty is that good! Dillon's warranty is legendary, no BS. While Hornady may have a good warranty, but I would not call it a "no BS" warranty. Some of the Hornady techs I spoke to, were very helpful and tried to make things right. Others made me feel like it was my fault the press did not function correctly, or I was just imagining a problem. One of the Hornady techs told me he had a lot of calls he had to get to, and we had to hurry it up and finish our call. I might consider a Dillon XL650, if I can get enough information on it to be comfortable with it's priming system. I have read a lot of Ka-Boom issues with the 650's priming system, and I would like to know if it is a very common issue, or if it is rare and due to operator error, and bad parts (not a design issue). I realize that it costs more for each caliber conversion on the 650, but I also realize that once it's bought, it's mine and I do not have to buy another or replace certain parts periodically at my expense. Did you purchase a 650? If you did, tell me if I will love one, or should I wait and just get a couple of 1050's (one for large primer, another for small primers)? My high volume calibers are: 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, 7.62X39mm, 30-06, .45 ACP, 40 S&W, and 9mm. Other high volume calibers are, to a lesser extent: 380 Auto, 38 Special, 44 Magnum, 8X57mm, 10mm Auto, and 22-250. Loading for all these calibers is what made the LNL (5 station, auto index, and casefeeder) attractive in the first place. I spoke with Brian, and he recommended the 550. I went with his recommendation and I am glad I did. I like the 550 plenty. I am just looking at loading a significant amount more for some of the rifle calibers (i.e. 223, 7.62 NATO, 7.62X39mm). I am in the Rifle club at my University, and some of us were throwing around the idea of a rifle drill team. The amount of shooting we will need to do, to reach the skill level we desire, will make a 1050 very attractive. We were also discussing the possibilty of getting a 650, with caliber conversions for each caliber rifle, and adding a bullet-feeder to bring the production rate up to 1050 levels (if this is possible). If I thought I could get Hornady to refund everything I bought from them, for the LNL AP, I would probably send it to them and spend the refund on a Dillon XL650.

[mizer67]

Did you get the sub-plate with the recessed primer cutout so that your punch is higher? That's the only thing that will help.

For the record. After setting up the 650, using the same brass and primers as on the LnL the 650 seated them easily and far deeper. LnL never would seat anything below flush.

Yes, my sub plate is identical to your second, "improved" version.

I've been using a spent small primer to increase the travel on the primer ram (also tried a nickel, dime, quarter, penny, washers, etc.) to increase the upward primer ram travel with no luck.

Hornady's sending me a new primer ram, but I doubt it will fix my issue.

All the extra force I exert on the upstroke (and it's significantly more than any other press I've owned or tested) just twists the press and linkage rather than seating the primer deeper. I have no trouble getting the primers and cases to line up, feed and prime, just to seat properly.

[roadapple]

Did you get the sub-plate with the recessed primer cutout so that your punch is higher? That's the only thing that will help.

For the record. After setting up the 650, using the same brass and primers as on the LnL the 650 seated them easily and far deeper. LnL never would seat anything below flush.

Yes, my sub plate is identical to your second, "improved" version.

I've been using a spent small primer to increase the travel on the primer ram (also tried a nickel, dime, quarter, penny, washers, etc.) to increase the upward primer ram travel with no luck.

Hornady's sending me a new primer ram, but I doubt it will fix my issue.

All the extra force I exert on the upstroke (and it's significantly more than any other press I've owned or tested) just twists the press and linkage rather than seating the primer deeper. I have no trouble getting the primers and cases to line up, feed and prime, just to seat properly.

Here is one more thing to try. I thought of this last night, and I have not had time to try it yet. The completed case bin bracket, on the left side of the machine, provides some tension when the handle is pressed forward. I'm going to try moving the bracket some, changing the tension, and see if that works. You may just have to accept flush as "good enough", or see if Hornady will take it back for a refund. Many of the Hornady techs told me that the press needs 300 lbs of force applied to the handle, in order to seat a primer. I know that no extra force would do any good, because we have come to mechanical limits. Yes, it justs twists the linkage. This is because the linkage / press handle geometry is wrong. It looks like a redesign is in order. If Hornady ever redesigns the LNL, and fixes this problem, they will be inundated with presses coming back from their customers for the fix. Even the customers that say they love their LNL, and that nothings wrong with them.

[ben b.]

My 4 year old LnL AP seats a bit below flush EXCEPT that CCI primers are more difficult to get below flush in .38 Spcl and require a pretty firm push. Wolf, Federal and Winchester primers work fine with normal pressure in 9mm, .38, .40 and .45. I decided to give in and use Federal primers for my revolver loads, like everyone else seesm to.