Billmanweh Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 I have a question, and I'm sure there's a really simple answer. I hear people talking about their times in different drills, and read the posts here, and I've even checked out some of the shooting videos posted here. And I've just picked the El Presidente because it seems to be one of the more popular drills that people post their times on quite often. Well, I read where people seem to be routinely shooting it in like 5 seconds or less. Well, then I checked out the results from the last couple year's Nationals and out of a few hundred shooters maybe one person shoots it in less than 7 or 8 seconds. And these are some of the best shooters in the world. What gives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 they want to shoot all a's and make sure they do. i can do a 5 in practice and hit majority of a's and on lucky days all a's but in a match i dont think i would do the same pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 There are folks out there that can run an El Presidente under 4 seconds. My personal best is 4.57 Last match El Prez was at at steel match with full size steel IPSC targets (no worry about pesky A-zones) came in around 5.6 seconds. 7 or 8 seconds for an El Pres at the nationals seems mighty slow to me, are you sure it was a standard El Prez, no hardcover or penalty targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 The difference is this: IDPA adds a 1/2 second penalty for the anything not "down zero". I usually shoot USPSA style El Prez in about 4.60, with 4 or 5 Charlies. Faster is better in USPSA because the Charlies work out to be worth about .2 seconds when the HF is calculated. With IDPA scoring this would be 4.60 plus 2.00-2.50 in penalties, plus 1.00 extra for the different mag position and the slide lock reload. 4.60+2.50+1.00= 8.10. I'm always pleased when I can shoot the IDPA style El Pres in anything under eight seconds. FWIW, I've tried shooting the IDPA El Prez both ways, smokin' and slower but down zero. The score ends up being about the same either way for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 I thought the El Prez was shot as a all down zero or A's or you blew it type of standard. I thought that was the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 IDPA...should have looked at the forum I was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 Sam covered it pretty well. The IDPA El Pres. is set up differently, draw is from concealment as is the reload. The Web is full of discussions about this very issue because of the huge disparity in times between the two sports. It's like comparing apples to oranges. FWIW, the majority of IPSC shooters don't routinely shoot the El Pres. in under five seconds on demand, but the skill level on this forum isn't exactly average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5048 BillD, the El Prez as most of us know it is a USPSA Classifier CM 99-11, scored Virginia Count. IDPA also uses the El Prez in Stage 2 of the Classifier, both allow for good and poor hits to be factored into the score . In some circles, shooting an EP quicker than 8 seconds is considered heresy. In other company Blasting one sub five, is just good clean fun. Like Bogart said in The African Queen, "you pays your money, you takes your choice." The all "A's or you blew it " thing sounds like a Bill Drill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 7 or 8 seconds for an El Pres at the nationals seems mighty slow to me, are you sure it was a standard El Prez, no hardcover or penalty targets? I have this stage from the 2003 IDPA Nationals on tape but I'm not sure how to post it. Also, the stage CoF.pdf file says the following in reference to the stage: Distance 10 meters, targets 3 meters shoulder to shoulder IF this was set up as it is written in the CoF it would be a modified ElPrez with distances between targets being around 10' instead of 3' (as in USPSA) I had to look twice at the 2003 scores when I first saw this topic because I had seen the posted scores in the low 5's and thought - Why are the Supersquadders having such trouble in the IDPA Nationals if everyone is doing this in the 5's? A slight variation in the course design but it might explain the differences in scores. (and they wanted to get good hits) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 The difference in scores at the IDPA Nationals is because good shooters know this is an excellent chance to LOSE the whole match. If you try for a blazing time and end up with a lot of points down then you have just lost any chance to win the Nationals. Please note that this is not an argument about which El Prez is best. But Bill asked about the seeming slow times at the IDPA Nationals. Come on down and see what you can do on the EL Prez as Jeff Cooper originally designed it. Targets at 10 meters (11yards) with the targets 3 meters (10 feet) apart. And shot from concealment with a slide lock reload. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 21, 2004 Share Posted March 21, 2004 In the IDPA El Prez, can you shoot two on each target, or do you have to do that goofy "tactical order" deal? If the latter, then the added transitions would make a significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 The three targets are also at different heights in the IDPA EP. I am a very happy camper if I can hit a sub 9 second EP including points down in a match. The best I have ever done with my G35 is 7.10 zero down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billmanweh Posted March 23, 2004 Author Share Posted March 23, 2004 that definitely answers my question thanks, guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Two different stage...with the same name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Sounds like several different standards with the same name. IIRC, Cooper set it up like was explained above and his criteria was that only A zone shots count. You only go as fast as you can get A zone hits. At least, that is what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 BillD In USPSA you go as fast as you can and HOPE they are all A hits. In IDPA the midnset is a bit different. BTW, about a year ago I discussed the El Prez with Colonel Cooper on the phone one evening and he was amazed at the speed with which people are doing it now. He never thought it would be obtainable under 5 sec even dropping some points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 BTW, about a year ago I discussed the El Prez with Colonel Cooper on the phone one evening and he was amazed at the speed with which people are doing it now. He never thought it would be obtainable under 5 sec even dropping some points... Was he amazed in a bad way, or a good way, or in a neutral way? I can't imagine him not having an opinion to go with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Rhino You are certainly correct, the Colonel has an opinion about almost everything. He was amazed in both a good and bad way. Bad because he thinks USPSA has left the tenets on which he helped to found it, and good because he thinks the shooters are better today than his/my day. BTW I absolutely LOVE yur new color scheme. You are the man, but then anyone who is purple and wears spandex...let me rephrase...you are the Rhino... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 BTW I absolutely LOVE yur new color scheme. You are the man, but then anyone who is purple and wears spandex...let me rephrase...you are the Rhino... All credit goes to the delightful and lovely SiG Lady who was kind enough to photoshop the original clipart for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 we're having a really hard time getting this right... Is a Rhino pachyermatous,,, yes, just got into the dictionary and the term relates to elephants, rhinos, and hippos.. Sorry to question your phraseology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Jeff Cooper wrote an article about the "El Presidente" in the Jan/Feb 1979 issue of American Handgunner. I am quoting that article: " In it's pure form it is shot thus: Three standard silhouettes (now IPSC Option targets) are placed ten meters distance, three meters apart. The shooter stands with his back to the targets opposite the center. His pistol is holstered and safe and his hands may be held any way but "cocked." He wears clothing that conceals the fact that he is armed. On signal he pivots and engages each target with 2 shots each, reloads, and repeats. The option target has a 25 cm (10") center. A twelve-shot "possible" (60 points) in ten seconds is "par." ---------- This is "El Presidente de veras," the true and original. There are, of course, various altered versions. " End of Quote. He has pictures of a revolver guy with speedloaders doing it (without concealment) in 8.2 seconds with 52 points. Of course electronic timers hadn't been invented yet. They used a whistle and stopwatch. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 He has pictures of a revolver guy with speedloaders doing it (without concealment) in 8.2 seconds with 52 points. Of course electronic timers hadn't been invented yet. They used a whistle and stopwatch. So what I'm getting from all this is that the USPSA version is more closely to what the Colonel set up, the cool kids did it fast and accurately with revo's back in the day, and concealment was from your waistband or in your boot.... I can certainly live with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Actually, the way it has been done at the IDPA Nationals is closest to the way Cooper used to do it. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmist10 Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 That is why I ask you questions instead of the other way around... Thanks Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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