SteveZ Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Stages look like a lot of fun. Regarding Stage "Sirens Cove"...there was a discussion here a couple of years ago about a similar stage at an Area match...there was a popper that activated a window on a port....shoot the popper and the window dropped making it impossible to shoot the targets behind that window (they weren't visible from any other shooting location). Some tried to argue that the targets became "disappearing" targets...however the concept of disappear targets only applies to targets with movement...and they didn't move. The stage was deemed to be illegal per the rulebook. Seems you've got something similar happening with those targets under the trap door (unless those targets are visible from somewhere else). See Rule 4.2.5 and Appendix B. Best to be aware of it now...rather than later when someone tries to arb it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 So instead of a solid piece of board as the trap door, they could utilize a window that exposes 25% of the target, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 (edited) So instead of a solid piece of board as the trap door, they could utilize a window that exposes 25% of the target, correct? If the upper A-zones were visible...thats all that would be necessary...and maybe they are....or maybe there is a way to manually re-open the trapdoor? Just a heads up for the course designers when they setup the stage. If the trap door was softcover (assuming some part of the target was visible)...problem solved. There are lots of ways to fix the COF...all that needs to be done..is to pick one. Edited February 26, 2011 by SteveZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 SteveJ, Can you post the link to that thread? I'm not having any luck finding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhop Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Stages look like a lot of fun. Regarding Stage "Sirens Cove"...there was a discussion here a couple of years ago about a similar stage at an Area match...there was a popper that activated a window on a port....shoot the popper and the window dropped making it impossible to shoot the targets behind that window (they weren't visible from any other shooting location). Some tried to argue that the targets became "disappearing" targets...however the concept of disappear targets only applies to targets with movement...and they didn't move. The stage was deemed to be illegal per the rulebook. Seems you've got something similar happening with those targets under the trap door (unless those targets are visible from somewhere else). See Rule 4.2.5 and Appendix B. Best to be aware of it now...rather than later when someone tries to arb it. he did a similar thing in 2009 and it was legal per amidon since you control when the window closes and no one arbed it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 (edited) he did a similar thing in 2009 and it was legal per amidon since you control when the window closes and no one arbed it Like the rest of of, John is not infallible when it comes to making errors. If an arb panel had to make a decision regarding this stage...they may not have the same viewpoint that John does. I don't see anything in the rulebook that addresses "control" when it comes to 4.2.5 and Appendix B. I'll see if I can find a link to the past discussion...but today I've got a funeral to go to...so it may not be until later. Perhaps someone else can find the link and post it in the mean time. Edited February 26, 2011 by SteveZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Follow up...I found the discussion...it wasn't here...it was on the USPSA Forums and it looks like I started it! :-) http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=941 I don't have time right now to read through the entire discussion (4 pages)....but looking at various posts....most people felt it was illegal....regardless of Johns initial opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 WOW Stages look awesome! June can't get here fast enough. +1!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer1911 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'll have to read the other discussion. WSSSC just had a stage that had a target that disappeared at the shooters control. A no shoot dropped to cover the target when activated by a popper. It was approved and legal and also not considered a NP Disappearing target either. Shooter controls when it disappears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'll have to read the other discussion. WSSSC just had a stage that had a target that disappeared at the shooters control. A no shoot dropped to cover the target when activated by a popper. It was approved and legal and also not considered a NP Disappearing target either. Shooter controls when it disappears. I just went and read all of the discussion on the USPSA Forum thread regarding Stage 10 from the 2009 DTC...concensus was that it was an illegal stage. Two issues seemed to be made in that thread... first and foremost was that you can't completely cover a target with hardcover (doing so creates an illegal target). Some tried to argue that the target became "disappearing" and would have to be scored as a DT target (the WSB for Stage 10 said they would NOT be scored as DT targets)...but the rulebook clearly defines DT targets as those that are Activated+Moved+No Longer Available for reengagement. The issue of "control" was dismissed as in violation of 4.2.5 and Appendix B and not part of the definition of disappearing target. Some suggested that the definition of disappearing target needs to be changed to allow for COFs where something moves in front of a static target....and then to allow scoring of those targets as disappearing....but until then..those targets are illegal targets. The definition of a DT target hasn't changes...its still a target that is activated, moves and goes away. The thread also said that sometimes issues like these slip through the NROI stage review committiee cracks....the question is...do any MD's want to risk being the poster child for getting it tested at their match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 .but the rulebook clearly defines DT targets as those that are Activated+Moved+No Longer Available for reengagement. So if that is the case, what if after activating the popper, the targets moved a few inches before the trap door closed. Have we satisfied the criteria for disappearing targets at that point? If not, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Sometimes rules need to be 'broken' so they can be fixed. We should have targets that can be revealed and then covered without the target itself moving. Think of an out and back where the mover is hardcover and moves away from and back, first exposing and then covering the target. The stage in question allows you to shoot two targets then a popper to allow you to pass, which happens to close access to the two targets. Sounds to me sort of like a Turner that disappears. Shoot a popper and you have the option of shooting the DT first or after engaging other targets,Go slow and the DT is gone. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 If not, why? under the current definition of a DT target...the TARGET needs to be activated...then it needs to move and then go away. Activating something that hides the target.....isn't activating the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Perhaps you missed this part: the targets moved a few inches before the trap door closed It doesn't say how far the targets need to move to be considered activated, just that they have to move, correct? After those targets move, it seems like they could be hidden in any way. A clamshell is a good example. This clamshell is just with hard cover. Come to think of it, there is a rule stating activated targets must be activated before they are shot, isn't there? That would nullify that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Jake....you're right...I did miss that part...and your second point is correct also. Activated targets must be activated (and hidden) before they can be engaged for a Level II match....so you are right...it would nullify the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 (edited) Take this discussion to the annoying rules forum. I am about to have to unsubscribe to this thread. I just want match updates guys. Edited February 27, 2011 by jtischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Antichrome Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Moderator...please break out the discussion about stage design to the ....annoying rules forum...it doesn't belong here. Thanks. There's an EASY way to alter the stage and make it undeniably legal...without changing the flavor of the stage. I hope this part of the discussion gets spun off into its own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 [snip] Activated targets must be activated (and hidden) before they can be engaged for a Level II match....so you are right...it would nullify the idea. Steve, I think you may have that part backwards. Level I's can specify in the WSB that an activator must be activated prior to target engagement, but at Level II's and above, it's on an "as and when available" basis (2.1.8.5.1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Yeah, I didn't word that very well. Level 2s don't allow you to engage any activated target before they are activated. So basically any moving target has to be hidden before they are activated/engaged at a level 2 which would prevent the COF/WSB from designating those targets in the trapdoor as DTs even if they got them to move somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 2.1.8.5 only talks about appearing targets. It doesn't say that disappearing targets can't be visible at all times (until they disappear.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Attach the targets to a frame. Put a hinge on the bottom of the frame, and then attach the top of the frame to the trap door with a cable. When the trap door closes the frame will fall (even if it's only 1"), thus you have "activated the targets" causing them to move. They MUST be considered disappearing targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer1911 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 How about a pressure platform to open the trap door and allow the targets become visable? Then when you step off it closes and the targets are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9supercomp Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 How about just shoot it as is and move on to the next stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 How about just shoot it as is and move on to the next stage. Huh? Are you saying we should ignore the rulebook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) I'll have to read the other discussion. WSSSC just had a stage that had a target that disappeared at the shooters control. A no shoot dropped to cover the target when activated by a popper. It was approved and legal and also not considered a NP Disappearing target either. Shooter controls when it disappears. I just went and read all of the discussion on the USPSA Forum thread regarding Stage 10 from the 2009 DTC...concensus was that it was an illegal stage. Two issues seemed to be made in that thread... first and foremost was that you can't completely cover a target with hardcover (doing so creates an illegal target). Some tried to argue that the target became "disappearing" and would have to be scored as a DT target (the WSB for Stage 10 said they would NOT be scored as DT targets)...but the rulebook clearly defines DT targets as those that are Activated+Moved+No Longer Available for reengagement. The issue of "control" was dismissed as in violation of 4.2.5 and Appendix B and not part of the definition of disappearing target. Some suggested that the definition of disappearing target needs to be changed to allow for COFs where something moves in front of a static target....and then to allow scoring of those targets as disappearing....but until then..those targets are illegal targets. The definition of a DT target hasn't changes...its still a target that is activated, moves and goes away. The thread also said that sometimes issues like these slip through the NROI stage review committiee cracks....the question is...do any MD's want to risk being the poster child for getting it tested at their match? This is an interesting thread. I agree the issue isn't settled, but if the definition of a disappearing target hasn't changed, then the glossary defines it as "A target which when activated and after completing its movement is no longer available for engagement." The target isn't activated, so it's not a disappearing target. Rule 9.9.1 is consistent with the determination these aren't disappearing targets: 9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). [9.2.4.4 references fixed time and doesn't apply] 9.9.2 Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot At or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies. [9.9.3 address failing to activate moving targets and doesn't apply] The targets don't come a rest after completing their designed momvement (the targets don't move) nor do they move continuously, they don't move at all, so no disappearing target designation. I can't escape at the moment Rule 4.2.5 which reads "Hard Cover (and overlapping no-shoots) must not completely hide the highest scoring zone on a partially hidden paper target. The minimum requirements are specified in Appendix B." Nor can I escape Appendix B2 and B3 which declares, "At least 25% of the lower A-zone, or the entire upper A-zone, must remain visible around hardcover or overlapping no-shoots." This seems very clear. "®emain visible around hardcover." Since the target doesn't remain visible it's not legal. It's clear to me that the rule didn't directly consider moving hardcover which completely hides a previously available target, but the rule writers did a clear enough job in declaring the targe must remain visible (or at leat a portion of it). Don't get me wrong, I think that it should be a legal target because the idea is really cool. The shooter does control the timing of the hardcover and if he attempts shooting order on an array which results in the hardcover covering the target then he (I believe) should suffer that poor judge or lack of shooting skill. The solution might be to place a small-ish hole in the hardcover or leave a really inconvenient gap so that "at least 25% of the lower A-zone, or entire upper A-zone, must remain visible around hardcover..." If the shooter over-estimates his shooting skill and drops the hardcover he can still engage it, it just becomes really, really hard and time consuming. Line the gap with no-shoots and he can blow himself up with a bunch of no-shoots and misses; or he can eat the misses and/or procedural and rock on... and learn what he isn't capable of just yet. What say y'all on that? (and I note that appedices B4 and B5 don't have an requirement that a certain percentage of the scoring area remain visible around hardcover... can a stage designer hide a popper behind hardcover? Does falling steel count as "moving?" j/k) Edited February 28, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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