Do you understand the course of fire

[centermass]

How long is too long to wait? At what point do you finally state "Are you ready?" and move along with the stage? Can't the RO just assess a procedural for not adhering to the WSB once the shooter has finished?

One of your jobs as an RO is to insure proper starting position.

This is my exact point... at what point does the RO interrupt the "readiness" of the shooter who is standing at the start position, hand not on gun, in a "ready" position. It just so happens the shooter is not in the PROPER starting position per the WSB. Is that the ROs responsibility, or is it the shooter's? Where is it stated the RO must remind a shooter of the proper start position? Especially when so many are claiming that the ONLY remark once the shooter approaches the line is "Make ready."

Edited April 19, 2011 by centermass

[sperman]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

[centermass]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Right, so the RO must proceed as the shooter is ready, whether or not it is the proper position or not. It's the shooter's responsibility to be in the correct start position. The RO must allow the shooter to run the course, THEN inform the shooter to run it again b/c he started in the incorrect position. In no way should an RO inform the shooter of the start position once the "Make Ready" command has been given. Yes?

[sfchorn]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Right, so the RO must proceed as the shooter is ready, whether or not it is the proper position or not. It's the shooter's responsibility to be in the correct start position. The RO must allow the shooter to run the course, THEN inform the shooter to run it again b/c he started in the incorrect position. In no way should an RO inform the shooter of the start position once the "Make Ready" command has been given. Yes?

Ummm....not so much.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed. (bold mine)

If the competitor does not assume the required start position, the RO should not continue to the next command (AYR?)

Since it's probably pretty hot and I have flat feet, I would then use the following rule to justify restating the correct start position:

7.1.1 Range Officer (“RO”) – issues range commands, oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing and closely monitors safe competitor action. He also declares the time, scores and penalties achieved by each competitor and verifies that these are correctly recorded on the competitor’s score sheet (under the authority of a Chief Range Officer and Range Master). (bold mine)

I believe 8.2.2 comes into play when the RO does not realize there was an incorrect competitor start position until after the buzzer. Since it was the RO's job to enforce the start position in the first place, that's probably why it is a reshoot and not a procedural.

Or, maybe I'm just trying to rationalize my opinion.....

[sperman]

I guess I'm not following your logic. If the RO knows the shooter is not in the correct start position, he cannot give AYR.

I see no problem telling the shooter "your toes need to be on the marks" or "hands above shoulders" even though they aren't official range commands.

[mactiger]

"Going Hot" is not a command. Neither is "Eyes and Ears", or anything else said before "Make Ready". While they aren't against the rules, all RO's should be aware that if something other than Make Ready is said, it can be (and often is) misconstrued by the competitor as a valid command to draw their gun. The best thing is to say "Make Ready".

Troy

While that is true, a little common sense helps. If I am running the first competitor, before I let him/her step forward, I will say "range is going hot, eyes and ears." To me that is just common courtesy and it definately is a safety issue. Once a competitor is at the starting position, IF I must say something besides the official range commands, I say "STOP" first. For instance, if a popper falls, or I see an untaped target. To issue "Make Ready" only to issue "STOP" makes no sense to me. The range commands cover almost all of the circumstances, but not this one.

8.3.5 says "STOP" may be issued "at any time during the course of fire." So technically, "STOP" can not be issued prior to "Make Ready". I think this should be changed to allow it at any time. Guess I will have to change until this gets fixed. Note off to AD and Troy.

While this rule does state that you may issue the STOP command at any time during the course of fire, it doesn't prohibit a Range Official from using it at any other time. I don't see a need for a "fix" here, especially if we are going to inject common sense into the equation.

As for "If Clear, Cylinder Closed, Holster"; yes that may be used since the rulebook lists closing the cylinder and holstering as the proper procedure for revolver shooters, but it doesn't specify using those words. The proper words, even for revo shooters, are: "If clear, hammer down, holster," at which time the revolver shooter only closes the cylinder and holsters.

Troy

[mactiger]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Right, so the RO must proceed as the shooter is ready, whether or not it is the proper position or not. It's the shooter's responsibility to be in the correct start position. The RO must allow the shooter to run the course, THEN inform the shooter to run it again b/c he started in the incorrect position. In no way should an RO inform the shooter of the start position once the "Make Ready" command has been given. Yes?

NO. The RO should be in control of the stage, and will not proceed until the competitor is in the correct start position. If the RO has to remind the competitor of what that is, then he does so. 7.1.1, 8.3.1, 8.3.2. Also, see 8.2.2, "under the direct command of a Range Officer"...

We use the timer on instant, and oversee competitor compliance with start position, ready condition, etc.

Troy

[AlamoShooter]

this entire long thread was starters with 'Do you understand the course of fire' old school /out dated some matches would give a re-shoot if the RO did not ask and the shooter had procedurals.

New is =Up Dated Don't add to or try to fix something that is not broken (Make Ready) works , its not broken.

At a club level with a few new shooters I will make a squad announcement early that the shooter is supposed to come to the start area with questions resolved and all the required gear.

As in don't step in to the start position for the "Make Ready" if you have questions.

I have been around a wile so I can get away with announcements at other clubs, If you feel out of place than possibly start with "I once stayed at a Holiday Inn Express" so all questions of value should be brought up before the ready area.

So if you've already made your announcement, and I ask you a question after coming to the starting position, what are you going to do?

I would respond with repeating the question in a voice that all the rest of the squad could benefit from the question and response to the question. Also pointing out that when the shooter starts to travel to large events 'that the habit of questions / disruption may put them out of their comfort zone and be counter productive'.

Like at a club level warning the shooter that they have their finger is the trigger guard during a reload is not doing them a favor, if the warning is later qualify-ed as it would normally be a match DQ.

A good Friend has the "old Habit" of saying " Are you Ready- The Shooter Is Ready- Stand By -beep" He says he is old and hard headed , but it has not yet been presented as a way of looking at it . That He may be distracting the shooter by the variation from the accepted range call. possible the shooter is kept from having their best effort on the stage, by the distractions.

[Jim Norman]

If that distracts you enough to upset your performance...

As long as I hear clearly "MAKE READY" I don't really care what else the RO has to say (within reason)

Make Ready, Stoke it, Stroke it, Flick it, Stick it. Ready, stand-by, beep.

Or Make ready, Stoke'em up Cowboy, ready? beep.

And my personal favorite at the completion of the COF is to insert Slide Forward (We save this for George Jones)

Seriously I do appreciate the correct commands, but minor variations especially when they are simply throw backs to the old commands, ie., Load and Make Ready, Is the shooter ready, shooter ready, standby, beep. This is not a big deal at a local match where everyone is proficient in English, at a bigger match it may be that you have shooters that have English limited to the Commands, any thing else may be misunderstood.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

So if you've already made your announcement, and I ask you a question after coming to the starting position, what are you going to do?

I would respond with repeating the question in a voice that all the rest of the squad could benefit from the question and response to the question. Also pointing out that when the shooter starts to travel to large events 'that the habit of questions / disruption may put them out of their comfort zone and be counter productive'.

That's very comforting, Jamie.

From your initial post I was afraid you might not want to give me the Make Ready command.

[Nik Habicht]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection, and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

Right, so the RO must proceed as the shooter is ready, whether or not it is the proper position or not. It's the shooter's responsibility to be in the correct start position. The RO must allow the shooter to run the course, THEN inform the shooter to run it again b/c he started in the incorrect position. In no way should an RO inform the shooter of the start position once the "Make Ready" command has been given. Yes?

See the part about "the required start position" followed by "at this point the RO will proceed?" That pretty clearly defines that the RO may not proceed, until the shooter is in the required start position. Theoretically the RO could wait for a shooter question -- but that won't happen at a major match....

The RO's job isn't to play "gotcha...."

[Skydiver]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

[sfchorn]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

[AlamoShooter]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

[ima45dv8]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Huh? No, not if the RO holding the timer knows the rules.

Settling into an incorrect start position will not result in a start signal.

The competitor must then assume the required start position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

[ima45dv8]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

[Nik Habicht]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

I really see that as RO error as well...

It's got nothing to do with cagey shooters, or unsportsmanlike conduct....

[aztecdriver]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

Well, I've had this happen to me - in fact on a squad I think you were shooting on last year. I had a competitor, after Standby, anticipate the start signal, and fully draw before I hit the button. His movement was fast enough that I couldn't disconnect my finger from the timer button and hit it - just about the time he was presenting at the first target. After a few rounds, I stopped him, and ordered a reshoot. Why? The competitor wasn't in the proper start position when the start signal occurred. Some say this was creeping, but I determined it was not creeping because they were not merely moving to get a more advantageous position - but had left the start position at the time of the start signal.

[mhs]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

Well, I've had this happen to me - in fact on a squad I think you were shooting on last year. I had a competitor, after Standby, anticipate the start signal, and fully draw before I hit the button. His movement was fast enough that I couldn't disconnect my finger from the timer button and hit it - just about the time he was presenting at the first target. After a few rounds, I stopped him, and ordered a reshoot. Why? The competitor wasn't in the proper start position when the start signal occurred. Some say this was creeping, but I determined it was not creeping because they were not merely moving to get a more advantageous position - but had left the start position at the time of the start signal.

I think that this is covered by 8.3.4.1

[ima45dv8]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

Well, I've had this happen to me - in fact on a squad I think you were shooting on last year. I had a competitor, after Standby, anticipate the start signal, and fully draw before I hit the button. His movement was fast enough that I couldn't disconnect my finger from the timer button and hit it - just about the time he was presenting at the first target. After a few rounds, I stopped him, and ordered a reshoot. Why? The competitor wasn't in the proper start position when the start signal occurred. Some say this was creeping, but I determined it was not creeping because they were not merely moving to get a more advantageous position - but had left the start position at the time of the start signal.

That's not the same thing. Someone jumping the clock is quite different from someone who assumes an incorrect start position and the RO starts them anyway.

[sfchorn]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

My problem with a DQ for Unsportsmanlike Conduct is twofold:

1. How can you PROVE this was an intentional act?

2. It is the RO's responsibility to ensure the competitor is in the correct start position before proceeding with the Are You Ready? command. How can I DQ someone for an RO failure?

The rules are very clear on the remedy for this situation - mandatory reshoot. No procedural, no DQ.

[mactiger]

So a cagey shooter could deliberately settle down into the incorrect start position, let the RO give him the "Are You Ready?" and start signal, shoot the stage, then refuse to sign the score sheet, and demand a reshoot under 8.2.2?

Considering the reshoot Gods are often not kind, yes. Take your chances.

Or get a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. ?

That's pretty harsh.

Why would the RO even start the shooter if he's settled into an incorrect start position?

Well, I've had this happen to me - in fact on a squad I think you were shooting on last year. I had a competitor, after Standby, anticipate the start signal, and fully draw before I hit the button. His movement was fast enough that I couldn't disconnect my finger from the timer button and hit it - just about the time he was presenting at the first target. After a few rounds, I stopped him, and ordered a reshoot. Why? The competitor wasn't in the proper start position when the start signal occurred. Some say this was creeping, but I determined it was not creeping because they were not merely moving to get a more advantageous position - but had left the start position at the time of the start signal.

That's not the same thing. Someone jumping the clock is quite different from someone who assumes an incorrect start position and the RO starts them anyway.

Definitely creeping. Hope he sends you a Christmas card.

Troy

[aztecdriver]

Definitely creeping. Hope he sends you a Christmas card.

Troy

Well - then it looks like I blew another one... This was what I was considering it -

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and

restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

[Poppa Bear]

I would have figured the same. Many of us are guilty of being predictable when we run the clock. AYR, one one thousand, two one thousand, press button. Someone shoots long enough and they can anticipate the buzzer, so when we add the three one thousand to the count they have already made their move. This is why I like to slowly start squeezing the start button when I get half way between the one one thousand and two one thousand. This way it catches me by surprise just like the shooter. Sometimes it is at two seconds, sometimes it is two and a half, sometimes it makes it out to three. I try to make myself as unpredictable as possible while running the clock.

[mactiger]

Definitely creeping. Hope he sends you a Christmas card.

Troy

Well - then it looks like I blew another one... This was what I was considering it -

8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and

restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored.

That rule refers to the competitor actually firing shots, not just moving at the start signal. See 10.2.6.

Troy