wreckshooter Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Have a question for three-gun optics. Someone else has a very similar topic but I did not want to bogart his topic, so I will start my own. Getting into three gun, something I have done exactly zero times so far. I have shot USPSA in production for the last year. I have accumulated some optics to try out on my AR. The AR is nothing special, basically I have two options, both pretty much stock except for some furniture changes; RRA Tactical Entry and an M&P 15T. The M&P is my wifes, the RRA is mine, and both of us intend to do three gun. I know there is stuff I can do to the ARs besides optics but my question centers on optics for now. I intend to shoot tactical, and I am a bit confused as under some rules tactical seems to be equivalent to limited, depending on what rules you are working under. Anyways, here are my optic choices, obviously with BUIS being present. Questions though, on a 1-4 optic, can you reliably cowitness BUIS when the optic is set at one power? Burris XTR 1-4/24 Millet DMSII 1-4/24 ACOG 3.5 Aimpoint T1 Primary Arms M4 clone Burris Fastfire (the only mount I have is a ring mount that goes with the Burris) I am thinking of letting the wife have the Burris for her gun, and running the ACOG on my rifle, at least for stages/matches with some tgts out to 100 meters and beyond. Question, can you switch optics between stages w/o changing divisions? If we are just shooting local matches with stages basically in pistol bays, the wife can use the T1 and I can use either the PA clone or the Fastfire (I'd need to buy a new mount for it and I am not sure the Fastfire is the best option as a primary RDS, seems to be more of a backup for a rifle). I am actually considering getting rid of the Millet as it is NIB after a warranty exchange and I have since picked up the Burris XTR. Also, considering sending the PA clone back as it is also NIB, and a recent purchase, and I made the unplanned purchase of the T1 after buying the PA. I haven't brought the PA to the range yet, but just playing around with it in the house, I do not seem to be able to acquire the red dot w/o cheek weld as easily as I can with a genuine Aimpoint. I may be wrong, and that is just playing with the PA in the house mounted on the rifle. So what are recommendations and considerations given this lineup? Specific Questions: 1. Are limited and tactical the same divisions under some rules? 2. Can you switch optics between stages w/o changing divisions? 3. Can you reliably cowitness BUIS with a variable optic when it is set to 1x? 4. Is the Burris Fastfire a decent rifle Primary RDS such that I should buy a stand alone mount for it? 5. Given the assortment of optics that I currently have, is the PA and Millet optics sort of redundant meaning, do I already have something that does the same job better? With selling the Millet and sending the PA sight back, I could have roughly $300 to do stuff like buy a stand alone mount for the Fastfire or purchase something else that is more suited to the options I have. Now, to make things murkier, I also just picked up a SCAR 16. I don't think that really changes anything as it's close enough to an AR that it shouldn't really change my optics considerations but maybe I am missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 To answer number 2: You cannot swap optics during a USPSA match. MG 5.1.7:Competitors must use the same firearms throughout the match. For purposes of this rule, a firearm is considered to be the combination of a specific caliber, barrel, stock or grip, sighting system, and fixed magazine or magazine tube if applicable. Competitors must not reconfigure any firearm (i.e., change caliber, barrel, stock or grip style, sighting system, and fixed magazine or magazine tube) during the course of a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Specific Questions: 1. Are limited and tactical the same divisions under some rules? 2. Can you switch optics between stages w/o changing divisions? 3. Can you reliably cowitness BUIS with a variable optic when it is set to 1x? 4. Is the Burris Fastfire a decent rifle Primary RDS such that I should buy a stand alone mount for it? 5. Given the assortment of optics that I currently have, is the PA and Millet optics sort of redundant meaning, do I already have something that does the same job better? With selling the Millet and sending the PA sight back, I could have roughly $300 to do stuff like buy a stand alone mount for the Fastfire or purchase something else that is more suited to the options I have. Now, to make things murkier, I also just picked up a SCAR 16. I don't think that really changes anything as it's close enough to an AR that it shouldn't really change my optics considerations but maybe I am missing something? My answers: 1. No. Tactical matches allow use of any optic on your rifle. Some mathces allow use of a 1x RDS on Limited. 2. I have never heard of any matches that allow you to switch optics w/o changing divisions. You can use a magnifier on 1x RDS and flip it on and off. 3. I have never seen one that would do this unless you are using an Eotech or Aimpoint and useing the maginifier. 4. I think the Burris Fastfire will work as a primary RDS. They have stood up well on my shotguns in open. 5. There are many shooters running the Millet with great success. But rather than ask a lot of us advice in such a broad manner, I would advise you to go to a match and finger weapons of shooters you see there. What is a gem to one eye is a rock to another. If that were otherwise, all women would have red hair. Optics considerations for the SCAR are the same as AR15. IMO the big difference is what feels better and the lack of trigger improvements for the SCAR. Edited January 6, 2011 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 I notice that you refer to BUIS several times. I can not speak for everyone, but I consider them extra "stuff" on your gun that just doesn't need to be there. If you are running any type of 1x optic, there is not really a need for BUIS, and you don't need to be trying to look thru a tube at BUIS. Now a JP sight out on your handguard is a different animal, but still, if your optic-such as the Burris xtr you mentioned- is worth a hoot, the other stuff is just that -unused stuff that will at some point just get in the way. You may read on other websites about how you have to have them to be atas, but listen to the shooters here. They are just that shooters. We see each other at matches, rag on each other frequently, but pretty much know what works. I have been shooting three gun for about 8 years, not as many matches as a lot of shooters, but enough to count, and I can tell you how many times I've had scope problems and had a need for BUIS-none, nada. Bottom line, if you want them, it is fine, but I'd spend the money on other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 In a 3 gun match, if you have switched to your BUIS, it is already over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 Kelly is absolutely RIGHT!!!! If you switch to your B.U.I.S. (Back Up Inebriation System)The match WILL be over, or you will get kicked out for drinking on the range! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (Back Up Inebriation System) Is this the couple bottles you couldn't find in the back of the fridge, or the warm six pack in the trunk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWF Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 yes, it does look like you need to do/go to a few 3 gun matches. my 2 cents is if you want optics the get a variable power scope. the weaver 1 x 3 is a great starting place. i would stay away from anything with a large dot, to me 4 moa is large because at long range it will hide the target. but it is just me. and forget about buis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Specific Questions: 1. Are limited and tactical the same divisions under some rules? 2. Can you switch optics between stages w/o changing divisions? 3. Can you reliably cowitness BUIS with a variable optic when it is set to 1x? 4. Is the Burris Fastfire a decent rifle Primary RDS such that I should buy a stand alone mount for it? 5. Given the assortment of optics that I currently have, is the PA and Millet optics sort of redundant meaning, do I already have something that does the same job better? With selling the Millet and sending the PA sight back, I could have roughly $300 to do stuff like buy a stand alone mount for the Fastfire or purchase something else that is more suited to the options I have. Now, to make things murkier, I also just picked up a SCAR 16. I don't think that really changes anything as it's close enough to an AR that it shouldn't really change my optics considerations but maybe I am missing something? Answers your questions: 1. No. 2. Nope. 3. Possibly depending on how high your scope mount is, but WHY? The original idea behind BUIS was for rifle with RDS like Eotech or Aimpoint, when your RDS pukes the only way to finish out the stage is to use iron. Dump the BUIS idea if you are going with a scope. 4. Burris FastFire seemed to be ok but like all RDS, they would run out of battery when you need it most. 5. PA M4-Clone is only an RDS, Millet DMS 1-4 is a variable scope, pick one that gives you more flexibility in your type of matches. Personally, if you put a RDS (no matter who makes it) and a half way decent 30mm 1-4 scope in front of me I'd go for the 1-4 scope. Hope we are not being so hard on you Welcome to the fun world of 3-gunning! Edited January 7, 2011 by PacMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) 3. You can not co witness with any variable power scope as all distort the front sight to a small degree. You can only do that with red dot sights. Also no variable scope is a true 1x. Try the ruler test lay down a yard stick and look at it through your scope at just a few feet away if the stick gets slightly bigger in the scope compared to your non shooting eyes view its not a 1x. pat Edited January 7, 2011 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wreckshooter Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 Thanks for all the quick replies. And no, no one is being too hard on me, I have learned a lot. We are going to shoot a carbine match here soon, so we will test out what we have. I think I will go in with the plan of giving the wife the T1 and the Burris XTR to choose between based on stage design, and I will stick with the ACOG, and then likely the Fastfire. Question though, can you shoot tactical and use a magnifier for your RDS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 If I was you I'd grab that xtr in a heartbeat. Of course you may actually be nice to your wife, and are helping her be successful. Most of us would look at her as another competitor and do what ever we could do beat her! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) Question though, can you shoot tactical and use a magnifier for your RDS? Yes provided "tactical" allows optics. Another hint: put at least your state of residence in your profile. You will get some local help that way. Edited January 7, 2011 by Charles Bond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now