yesplayer Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 From my first match, I learned I need to work on my one hand shooting at 10-15 yd. Readying Brain's book, I learned about neutrality. From other's whether it's the push/pull (front/back) or isometrics (canceling sideway forces), it seemed to reinforce the neutrality concept to minimize shooting to the right or left so sight returns up down. However, I am now stuck on one handed shooting (esp. weak hand shooting) Can you share how you grip the gun with one hand? Do you strive to gain neutrality? Where you should pay attention? Where you push or pull? Do you use a stronger grip than two hands? Do you adjust according to distances (5 yd vs 15 yd)? Do you change your grip ever for Double Action vs. Single Action? More generally, I would like to shoot more accurately with one hand with or without neutrality. Second, I would like to learn better recoil mgmt since the sight doesn't return top down as in two hands on the second shot. I'd like to get the mechanics down (form correct) before massively practice it. Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Yesplayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I don't think about how much side to side, or front to back pressure in my grip when shooting with only one hand, but I typically don't focus on those sorts of things. I let the results, and what the gun/front sight does, dictate things. Generally speaking, you're probably going to have to use more overall grip pressure when shooting with only one hand, but not so much that it negatively impacts your trigger press. It's one of those things where you'll have to start slowly, and work up to speed, while watching the results. If the shots are hitting in the A-zone, your grip and trigger press is fine. If they start to wander, low left for right hand, low right for left hand, it may be anticipation, or too much tension in your hand, but you'll see it. As far as shot to shot recovery, a lot of it comes down to practice and form. Manny Bragg did a demonstration at the class I took with him where he keeps the gun vertical, similar to two-handed, by rolling the elbow inboard. It looks and feels funny at first, but you'll find that the front sight resets much quicker...it comes back similar to shooting with two hands (although not as quickly). As soon as I started doing that, my scores jumped significantly on classifiers with one-handed shooting required...I think the first one was right at 91% or something like that. It's definitely worth trying! R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic_jon Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 ... you're probably going to have to use more overall grip pressure when shooting with only one hand, but not so much that it negatively impacts your trigger press. It's one of those things where you'll have to start slowly, and work up to speed, while watching the results.... I find that for me, this is the part of one handed shooting that I have the most issues with, especially when I am trying to go "too fast" or am shooting with my off-hand. I tend to grip too hard and start pulling the shots a bit if I go faster than I can call the shot. The flip side of that though is that if I am deliberate and call my shots, if *feels* like I am going slower but I end up with good accuracy and a fast time. On a related note: After getting some professional training I learned that sometimes what *feels* faster, is not, and only a timer can tell you what is really faster and what is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted January 8, 2011 Share Posted January 8, 2011 Manny Bragg did a demonstration at the class I took with him where he keeps the gun vertical, similar to two-handed, by rolling the elbow inboard. It looks and feels funny at first, but you'll find that the front sight resets much quicker...it comes back similar to shooting with two hands (although not as quickly). As soon as I started doing that, my scores jumped significantly on classifiers with one-handed shooting required...I think the first one was right at 91% or something like that. It's definitely worth trying! R, Saul Kirsch teaches the same thing....check out the third video down... Strong Hand Weak Hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesplayer Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 by rolling the elbow inboard. Great advice, I tried that in the 2nd round. Here is a youtube of my left hand shooting. Any critiques, suggestions, hints and tips would be appreciated. - Yesplayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 The McMillan cant seems to help with weak/strong hand only shooting. This "cant" turns the gun inwards at about 45 degrees (for a right handed shooter in weak hand the sights are canted 45 degrees to the right, and 45 degrees to the left in strong hand). Sounds whacky, but that slight cant puts the forearm, wrist, hand in the most natural body position you can achieve and reduces muscle strain & tension and results in a more controlled trigger press that reduces jerking the trigger. The slight difference in sight picture is easily accepted by the eyes with some practice. If you hold the gun out in the strong hand, with the sights in perfect horizontal alignment... you will feel tension on the arm. Cant the arm 45 degrees inward, and the tension is greatly reduced. It works the same with the weak hand. The reduction in muscle tensions allows a smoother trigger press. It's something worth looking at if you wish to improve one hand shooting performance. GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 A few suggestions I have would be to anchor your thumb a little higher. Currently it LOOKS sort of curled over on the grip although it's hard to see in the video. If you straighten it out a bit more, you will get more straight back recoil. When it's curled over, you get an accordion effect when the gun recoils since the support on the weak side (which is already limited) is moved down. The goal is to keep all the support you can as close to in-line with the muzzle as possible. The gun will ALWAYS recoil up and right when shooting with only the left hand, but you can avoid the accordion. Here's a few frames of the accordion effect I saw in your video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The McMillan cant seems to help with weak/strong hand only shooting. This "cant" turns the gun inwards at about 45 degrees (for a right handed shooter in weak hand the sights are canted 45 degrees to the right, and 45 degrees to the left in strong hand). Sounds whacky, but that slight cant puts the forearm, wrist, hand in the most natural body position you can achieve and reduces muscle strain & tension and results in a more controlled trigger press that reduces jerking the trigger. The slight difference in sight picture is easily accepted by the eyes with some practice. If you hold the gun out in the strong hand, with the sights in perfect horizontal alignment... you will feel tension on the arm. Cant the arm 45 degrees inward, and the tension is greatly reduced. It works the same with the weak hand. The reduction in muscle tensions allows a smoother trigger press. It's something worth looking at if you wish to improve one hand shooting performance. GOF Yep, that's the way they taught it for years, and it doesn't work anywhere nearly as well as rolling the elbow inboard, and keeping the gun vertical. I canted the pistol inboard for years...since around 1991, until last June...call that 19 years. In five minutes, I was faster and more accurate after trying it the way Manny and Saul teach it. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Everyone will have to determine what works best for them, but this IDPA Master finds the McMillan cant his best choice for weak and strong hand with semi-auto or revolver. GOF Edited January 11, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohuskers Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The McMillan cant seems to help with weak/strong hand only shooting. This "cant" turns the gun inwards at about 45 degrees (for a right handed shooter in weak hand the sights are canted 45 degrees to the right, and 45 degrees to the left in strong hand). Sounds whacky, but that slight cant puts the forearm, wrist, hand in the most natural body position you can achieve and reduces muscle strain & tension and results in a more controlled trigger press that reduces jerking the trigger. The slight difference in sight picture is easily accepted by the eyes with some practice. If you hold the gun out in the strong hand, with the sights in perfect horizontal alignment... you will feel tension on the arm. Cant the arm 45 degrees inward, and the tension is greatly reduced. It works the same with the weak hand. The reduction in muscle tensions allows a smoother trigger press. It's something worth looking at if you wish to improve one hand shooting performance. GOF Yep, that's the way they taught it for years, and it doesn't work anywhere nearly as well as rolling the elbow inboard, and keeping the gun vertical. I canted the pistol inboard for years...since around 1991, until last June...call that 19 years. In five minutes, I was faster and more accurate after trying it the way Manny and Saul teach it. R, This is great advice. I've got to work on the whole cant thing as well. It just doesn't feel natural to hold it straight up and down so it's obviously something i'm doing wrong. I'll try the elbow trick as well; I'd lay odds that this will cure the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Everyone will have to determine what works best for them, but this IDPA Master finds the McMillan cant his best choice for weak and strong hand with semi-auto or revolver. GOF It's sort of funny, but I made USPSA Master partially because of two classifiers that hand strong hand/support hand strings within two months of switching to the elbow roll...practiced it like two or three times....bingo 90%+ I'm curious, who showed you the alternative to the cant? There can always be exceptions, but when some of the very best teachers (and shooters) in the world say that it's the best way, that tells you a lot. I'm 99.9% certain Manny said he hadn't seen anybody that wasn better with the cant than with the elbow rolled in...and he teaches hundreds of folks a year. Barring some physical issue, everybody's arms work pretty much the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Manny Bragg did a demonstration at the class I took with him where he keeps the gun vertical, similar to two-handed, by rolling the elbow inboard. It looks and feels funny at first, but you'll find that the front sight resets much quicker...it comes back similar to shooting with two hands (although not as quickly). As soon as I started doing that, my scores jumped significantly on classifiers with one-handed shooting required...I think the first one was right at 91% or something like that. It's definitely worth trying! R, Saul Kirsch teaches the same thing....check out the third video down... Strong Hand Weak Hand I cannot get the videos to load. I'm trying this but still would like a visual of the elbow and arm to know I am doing this correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wurm Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I was taught the cant a while back and thought it was how it was done. I was never really happy though with multiple shots. The gun just wouldn't return naturally to the same spot very well. I fought it and thought it was because I wasn't practicing enough. Ok, maybe I wasn't practicing enough but that's a different discussion I got the 3gm and 3gm2 DVDs a few months ago and when I heard Saul Kirsch mention rotating the arm so that the elbow pointed down I figured what the heck, couldn't hurt right? I am happy to say it has helped my one handed shooting quite a bit! Only problem has been making it second nature so that I don't have to think about it. Happens sometimes but I still find myself canting a bit and then I immediately notice the gun not recoiling the way I like. Give it a try if you haven't yet and see how it works. Pay attention to the sights and see if they return to the same spot after you fire a round. Since you mentioned stance, I'll say that I used to blade off when shooting one handed but have since switched to shooting in basically the same stance as I use freestyle. That way I don't have a couple of different stances to worry about and for moving and shooting one handed I can move like I shoot two handed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I can never get those videos to load either and my internet is 35Mbps..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Saul's video uses Silverlight. You might have to tweak your settings by uninstalling AG Interactive programs to get Silverlight to actually load being as AG Interactive uses the same dll as Silverlight. Look at the second to the bottom post here: http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/t/141649.aspx I should also add that you need to go to the Double Alpha Theater tab. Edited January 13, 2011 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Using Firefox, not IE. Will try IE to see if there is any difference and I do have silverlight on the machine. Nope, just cycles around and never loads. Not keen on to futz around with services to view a video, has to be a better way. Given his popularity, would think they would be more readily available. Edited January 13, 2011 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Using Firefox, not IE. Will try IE to see if there is any difference and I do have silverlight on the machine. Nope, just cycles around and never loads. Not keen on to futz around with services to view a video, has to be a better way. Given his popularity, would think they would be more readily available. My big thing was learning that Webshots is an AG Interactive program. It is something I put on my computer a while ago but never really used. I deleted the program and Saul's videos started right up after that. I read that others tricked the computer into thinking they had an older version of Silver so that the new install used the right dll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No AG interactive services listed in my services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No AG interactive services listed in my services. Try http://www.microsoft.com/getsilverlight/get-started/install/default.aspx It will tell you if Silverlight is working on your computer. It will either show your current version or tell you to download it. If it recognizes it is being on your computer then you are having a different problem with the videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesplayer Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Two things I've learned to incorporate since my initial posts are 1) to keep the other hand fisted around chest (instead of letting it hang out/swing) 2) practice, if for no reason, to simply strengthen your muscle and dexterity on the weakhand side (so we can relax and not shake) anchor your thumb a little higher. Currently it LOOKS sort of curled over on the grip although it's hard to see in the video. If you straighten it out a bit more, you will get more straight back recoil. Thanks Eric for the keen observation. I will try to keep the thumb high instead of bend and see how that worked. --- I couldn't see Saul's video either but found 3) here is one showing the cant vs elbow roll in by Dave Spaulding 4) here is one showing the cant vs sideway shooting I wonder how BE shoot one handed... Let's improve our one handed shooting together!!! So we have double alpha on one hand all the time! Edited January 13, 2011 by yesplayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesplayer Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Didn't find Saul Kirch's one hand but there was a Recoil Control ones where there are a lot of points that may be applicable to one hand. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlosa Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I don't think about how much side to side, or front to back pressure in my grip when shooting with only one hand, but I typically don't focus on those sorts of things. I let the results, and what the gun/front sight does, dictate things. Generally speaking, you're probably going to have to use more overall grip pressure when shooting with only one hand, but not so much that it negatively impacts your trigger press. It's one of those things where you'll have to start slowly, and work up to speed, while watching the results. If the shots are hitting in the A-zone, your grip and trigger press is fine. If they start to wander, low left for right hand, low right for left hand, it may be anticipation, or too much tension in your hand, but you'll see it. As far as shot to shot recovery, a lot of it comes down to practice and form. Manny Bragg did a demonstration at the class I took with him where he keeps the gun vertical, similar to two-handed, by rolling the elbow inboard. It looks and feels funny at first, but you'll find that the front sight resets much quicker...it comes back similar to shooting with two hands (although not as quickly). As soon as I started doing that, my scores jumped significantly on classifiers with one-handed shooting required...I think the first one was right at 91% or something like that. It's definitely worth trying! R, +1 i took a few months of work to work on my shooting full time, working on strong and weak hand shooting was at the top of my list. i experimented with many things but rolling the elbow inwords, keeping the gun vertical, and having a little bend in my elbow had immediate positive effects on my weak and strong hand shooting.. it's amazing how fast that adjustment got me on target, and how much easier it is to bounce the sights from target to target vs the canted gangsta technique:D i showed my finding to some of the guys i practice with, and they found it improved their shooting almost immediately... it is awkward at first but it will more thank likely make a huge difference almost immediately. Edited January 13, 2011 by carlosa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesplayer Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Below is todays left hand shooting practice. I tried to adopt straighter thumb as suggested by Eric S. and also compared Cant vs Elbow Rolled-in. First min is Cant - please skip to 0:54 for Elbow Rolled-in. I did notice the recoil on Rolled-in went vertically up-down instead of accordion like on the Cant accounting for potentially more accurate first and follow-up shots. Though canting feels more natural and elbow locked-in takes a conscious effort. The later shoot went a bit down hill, when I am not being conscious of rolled-in elbow - I was neither canted nor rolled-in. Ouch! The slight accordion effect appeared again and after reviewing the video I noticed my thumb curled again. Any further tips of refinement or suggestion would be appreciated. Happy shooting! Going to my 2nd USPSA match tomorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANeat Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Im a Bullseye shooter and have shot a few USPSA matches in the past. In the Dave Spaulding videos he mentions it, but each shooter need to figure out what works best for themselves. The worst thing would be to try and adopt someones technique when its not best for you. Figure out what works for you Shooting one handed in a USPSA match where you normally seem to transition from 2 handed to one handed, strong to weak hand or whatever.... never has been the same for me compared to shooting bullseye where you have the time to stand there and prepare yourself. Sometimes it feels better for me to have the gun vertical, at times I seem to get a bit of a cant. The main thing for me to be able to call the shot, breaking the trigger without disturbing the sights. Here is a good video of an Air Force shooter shooting Bullseye, Rapid fire, (Beretta 9mm) where you fire 5 shots in 10 seconds at 25 yards on a turning target. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=47202656964600610&pr=goog-sl# Edited January 16, 2011 by ANeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Here is a good video of an Air Force shooter shooting Bullseye, Rapid fire, (Beretta 9mm) where you fire 5 shots in 10 seconds at 25 yards on a turning target. That's really a good video. It's actually an excellent demonstration of the problem with canting the gun, even a little. The gun lifts up and significantly to the left. Some of the lateral movement is cant, some is that it's away from the hand because of the natural way your arm works. The problem is that even a slow pace for USPSA/IDPA, you'd take those five shots in maybe 2.5s rather than 10, and if the gun is returning to the target on an angle, it's much harder to pick up the sights. With the elbow rolled in, it makes the joint work vertically, rather than laterally on an angle. It's actually easy to see the difference. Hold your hand out (simulating holding a gun) with the cant, and pull your hand back towards you...it rises up and to the left. Now, hold your hand out with the elbow rolled in towards your belly button, putting your forearm as vertical as possible. Now pull your hand back to your body...it lifts straight up. Both are exactly what happens when you shoot one-handed with those two techniques....it's simply the way everybody's joints work, i.e. it's not realistically possible to shoot with a cant, and have the gun lift straight up. If anything, getting the gun to lift straight up keeps the front sight tracking as close to what we normally see when we shoot with both hands, and that visual is what we're programmed to follow best. Maybe a better way of saying it would be: If you can have the front sight track straight up and down, is that better than having it track up and to the side? If so, finding a way to make that happen should help almost anyone. R, Edited January 16, 2011 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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