DyNo! Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Well If you are shooting at 250 with someone elses rifle why cant you shoot 250 with your's assuming youn are still friends? Secondly...that simply isn't going to happen except with the hottest .223 load and out of a 20" barrel, a 16" just wont do it. My rifle crosses over right about 57 yards but WHO CARES, it is just coincidence.I shoot at 300 to get the zero, AND THEN come back in to see where it ACTUALLY hits at the various CLOSER ranges. The main thing with any SHORT RANGE ZERO is it just IDEALY gets you in the ball park. The Green Machine uses it to conserve ammo cause new recruits usually can't shoot groups AT ALL past about 100M, so they go with the short distance...(this is where Cam got mixed up), and hope that IN GENERAL it will hit a torso sized target out to 300M or so. The trouble is any little bit you are off up close becomes a HUGE difference "out there" Vertically and Windage wise. BUT if you are happy doing it that way feel free! Just expect a lot of extra shots and a few "Where in the Hell is this thing hitting" conversations with R.O.s/spotters Disclaimer: I learned all this stuff frome Jesse on the Inter-web, and some year I hope to actually go shoot a 3-gun match, instead of just typing about them.(adendum Note/Disclaimer this is to gig my good friend Jesse and is not ment to insult, inflame nor in anyway besmirch jesse's inter-web typing capabilities) I'm not an authority by any means but I don't think we disagree other than the drum calibrations. After further consideration, I think I'll even run with the JP clamp on sight since there clearly aren't many people who run the globe setup with success. I push some slow velocities out of my rifle (2700 FPS with 55gr ammo in an 18" if we're not shooting that far ) and my drum is marked in clicks instead of distances which works out better for me since I don't load to GI velocities for the most part. At no point has my rifle ever had less than a 200 yard zero and any error sighting in at a short range is exponentially worse at a longer range. One day I will catch you Mr. Miller - hope to bump into you all this season. Edited January 2, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 DyNo, I am easy to catch, I am old blind and slow. I do however still have a bit of memory left and we have already "bumped" into each other. We even had a bit of conversation, and I have watched you shoot, but I digress. At no time was I disagreeing with your basics except for the Torso size thing and All military type 5.56X45mm ammo will, for all intents and purposes, hit within 2-3" of each other at 300M which is certainly smaller than a Mil-park target, or torso size. Word to the wize here, and once again not any kind of "attack" on you, at 2700 a 55 gr. bullet only makes a power factor of 148.5 not the 150 requiered as minimum floor which even OUTLAW MATCHES requier as their power floor. What you have done by posting that is akin to saying yeah I got a 3 oz. Nitrous bottle in my pocket to "help" me across the finish line in NASCAR, Also most matches WON'T allow a tank brake in Limited so I would also change that out. I look forward to see you at many matches this year, you and your guys are fun and I enjoyed meeting all of you. See you on down the shooting trail Amigo! KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 I gotta admit- I still apparently don't know my short range POI too well on the AR15. (M1A is a different story.) I shot my chrono yesterday at 10 ft....twice...with two different ARs..... And a 7.62 makes a lot more of a mess than a 5.56..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Disclaimer: I learned all this stuff frome Jesse on the Inter-web, and some year I hope to actually go shoot a 3-gun match, instead of just typing about them.(adendum Note/Disclaimer this is to gig my good friend Jesse and is not ment to insult, inflame nor in anyway besmirch jesse's inter-web typing capabilities) Is it the same if it was learned on the web or a smoke filled garage in a drunken stuper or both if the guy doing the talking was also the same guy doing the typing? If you keep up all these compliments I am going to muster up the courage to build an iron sight rifle and shoot with you big dogs. I think I can win as I already have facial hair. Edited January 2, 2011 by jtischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Ahhh...MrT wouldn't "stuper" indicate SOME form of coherence?? As I recall....uhhh...wait...I CAN'T recall and what guy were we talking about again? Hey you HAD a nice Iron sight Rifle! Now even Curly has one...you are behind man! Edited January 2, 2011 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsoncop9 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 i cant find the jp front sight on there website can someone provide a part number? and i guess i need to get the DPMS rear sight or does anyone have another recomendation. so far i have figured out a 300 yd zero is needed and know where your poi and poa is. So if i shoot 9 inchs low at 400 yards i need to aim at the top of the steel. Am i missing anything else? thanks for explaining this to an extremely slow learner and dense head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 The J.P. part you are looking for is under "gas systems" on their web site, not under sights where we all think it should be, but hey they marche to their own drummer! The part number is JPGS-2FS. I think Brownells also carries them under gas blocks, but I am not sure as I always go through J.P. Hope this helps. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sono Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 My 400yrd trick for MGM flash targets is to lolly pop the bottom of the card. That is with a 300yrd zero. JP is a great product. If you on a budget like me look on Armalite for the clamp on frontsight for around 40ish I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kampr Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 i cant find the jp front sight on there website can someone provide a part number? and i guess i need to get the DPMS rear sight or does anyone have another recomendation. so far i have figured out a 300 yd zero is needed and know where your poi and poa is. So if i shoot 9 inchs low at 400 yards i need to aim at the top of the steel. Am i missing anything else? thanks for explaining this to an extremely slow learner and dense head. Try post #3,... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116858&view=findpost&p=1325099&hl=&fromsearch=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Gorilla, I take very little personally, so I hope most do the same with my comments but sometimes i do hurt peoples feelin's. As my buddy Kart said, the short range crossover is nice to know ONCE you've actually gotten the long range zero done and figured out. Once you know this, your SR zero may or may not be the same as someone else's just know yours, it can be different for you with different rifles using the same load???? Dyno, ditto what Kert said, just also add to the list of things to remember, do not give your shooting partner Buckshot for a stage that needs slugs!!! although all hits on a target at 40ish yards away was impressive. What he said about trainees shooting at close range is indeed true I trained USAF trainees and they shot at 10m, and trying to get a GROUP from them was....................an exercise in futility, but the reasoning was 22rf was cheaper and it was easier to get them "qualified" at 10m than 100m. BTW if you're off a 1/4" at 10m its 2.5" at 100m, so it is quite easy to be off when converting from short range to long range. Listen to Qurt, he's one of the ones you should!! that Jessie guy can't walk out onto a patio without breaking his ankle. although he did supply us with lots of extra practice ammo. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Copy that, I ordered an SJC Titan to replace the Open comp yesterday and I definitely won't be shooting the wimpy stuff when there is a power factor to meet. Dyno, ditto what Kurt said, just also add to the list of things to remember, do not give your shooting partner Buckshot for a stage that needs slugs!!! One day in school, they will teach us how to read. We'll start learning that after we learn how to shoot. Edited January 3, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 The only thing I can add to Kurt's/Trapr's recipe for a well setup iron-sight AR is to take a look at the clamp-on rail block JP makes. On a 20"er you could put it all the way out to the muzzle brake and it will add several inches to your sight radius. This is a good thing in almost every aspect. You just need more elevation control for LD on the rear sight, ifn'ya wanna crank the knobs that is, me; I like hold-overs/unders too and don't mess with the knobs except to make sure they are where they are supposed to be. Here is my favorite Limited rifle using that extended sight radius setup (Yeah, I use the JP Globe and a post/circle insert and yeah, it has drawbacks, but you learn to cope, yes you do, LOL). I have beaten it pretty mercilessly for quite a few years now and the clamp-on block and JP globe have taken the lickin' and kept on tickin' so far. The co-witnessed OKO is how I leave it in the safe, it comes off for matches, although I am thinking of leaving it on for matches now that the new USPSA MG rules say it's OK. Irons are just plain way more fun than optics, not as easy either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Josh, Bring you and your new irons with you up the road 4 hours to OKCGC on the 16th, shoot my 3-gun match and then we can play with the irons out to 300. Put it on paper and than you will know.. Of course, bringing some of your fancy targets would be cool too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Yeah Baby!! Like Mike Pinto said!!!! One of the best Iron shooters in the U.S. righ now!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 3, 2011 Author Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) Josh, Bring you and your new irons with you up the road 4 hours to OKCGC on the 16th, shoot my 3-gun match and then we can play with the irons out to 300. Put it on paper and than you will know.. Of course, bringing some of your fancy targets would be cool too! I might be helping MD a match at BOTW that day and I might not have my irons in by then, cause I haven't put the order in yet....but if they do come in, I'll gladly take you up on the offer! That'd be awesome Mike! Edited January 3, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsoncop9 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 thanks for all the info of rifle setups. I have a 16inch barrel so i think i will be getting the JP bolt on gas block to put on end of rifle to increase my sight radius. Any recommendations on front sights that will bolt to the picatinny rail on the JP bolt on gas block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoky Bear Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 If you are just going to put a gas block on for a front sight, why don't you just get the JP front sight assembly? http://www.jprifles....p?item=JPGS-2FS I know several people running them. The big plus is once it is set no chance of sight coming loose. To me a much better option if make it an iron sight rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Keep in mind I am not a limited shooter but saw something at FB3G that I would use if I was a limited shooter. The gun was set up with whatever irons on the top for long range and I have no idea what type or what zero. The shooter than had a RDX mounted on the side just like some of the open shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 thanks for all the info of rifle setups. I have a 16inch barrel so i think i will be getting the JP bolt on gas block to put on end of rifle to increase my sight radius. Any recommendations on front sights that will bolt to the picatinny rail on the JP bolt on gas block? The JP A2 style front sight or the Armalite A2 style front sight would both be good choices fitted on the clamp-on sight block from JP. The JP one-piece clamp-on in the link above is also a good choice but does have the drawback of not being easily removable if you want to put optics on it once in a while. Loosening it up and rotating it would be a loser because you would have to re-establish adjustment every time you do that. BTW, the JP clamp-on sight "base" is just that, a sight mounting block only, not a gas block (as pictured above on my rifle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Wow, what a thread. Since my name is being bandied about I thought I would jump in. When shooting irons, I shot the same rifle at many a USPSA Nationals and the European Rifle Championship so it has been 2nd place a lot! I use an LMT detach rear sight with a custom same plane aperture. I don't know the size of the apertures but they are both smaller than their A2 counterparts. I just picked the size by trial and error with the help of Derrick Martin. As for the front sight, I use the dreaded JP Globe front sight mounted just behind the comp. Yes, John did give it to me but I would not run it had I not thought it a better system. I only use the provided post front sight and not the aperture front sights, which I feel are only good for round targets. I like the JP globe as I think it provides more protection for skinny front posts. I have bent several unprotected skinny front posts (with the standard A2 front sight base) but never had one inside the globe break or bend. I also use the globe itself as a huge front sight for close range targets. The globe is easier to catch on tight ports and requires some care but I have never had it come off although I have hit it on stuff. HOWEVER, I had to get my globe front sight pinned as it would occasionally slip and I would lose zero. Since doing that several years ago, I have never had an issue. As for zeroing the iron sight rifle. I think Kurt, Trapr and Robby Johnson are correct, a 300 meter zero is the way to go. And the ONLY way to get a 300 meter zero is to shoot at 300 meters. I used to run a 250 yard zero which is better than the 300 m zero INSIDE of 250 but starts to get wobbly past 250 as you are holding over stuff This is ESPECIALLY true on paper targets at 300 meters. The Euro Rifle Championships convinced me of the value of the 300 m zero (I am slower than my Team America team mates). As for ammo, I think the iron sight rifle really can benefit from shooting lighter bullets which have flatter trajectories. This matters little when shooting a magnified optic, particularly those with BDCs but you want the path of the bullet to be as close to the tip of the front sight as possible, so in the future I would shoot 50-55 grain bullets FAST if running irons. Of course, that rifle now has a Leupold Prismatic on it. Which by the way, crushed an Eotech yesterday when shooting drills at plates. The clarity of the Pris was far superior to that of the Eotech and made hitting the plates much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 And, yes, you must have facial hair to shoot irons. Facial hair allows the shooter to build a consistent check or spot weld. Any facial hair will do: the goatee, the Piatt (which will make you more accurate), closely followed by the Puente or even the pornstache. Robby Johnson never won a Nationals with irons as he has no facial hair. You cannot get there on mere talent alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoky Bear Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) nevermind Edited January 3, 2011 by Smoky Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arsoncop9 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 good i have facial hair. glad to know i don't need talent. Ok to open another can of worms. what do the different size appatures have to do with the rear sight. i get the objective of the large and small l but i have noticed some sights with smaller ones and some with not much difference. thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Hey no one asked you to butt in here Kelly, when we are talking about YOU! and it,s not "just" a porn-stache . I would suspect that the Leupold Prizmatic was being shot by a former Limited National Champion and I would suspect that the Eo-Tech would have been beaten by said National Champion even if he had a #2 Pencil for a front sight and a hole bored in a Large eraser taped to the back. Rear apertures can be changed out on any A2 style rear sight set-up and is meerly a matter of personal preference. Some guys like smaller apertures some like the bigger ones, I have always used just the standard A2 aperture set-up. B.T.W. I tried "the Piatt" and while it did help accuracy, it also started make me sound like I was from Jerse so I went back to what I know best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I guess i'll have to start on some facial hair.. Does it count that I have all the hair on my head?? Its a little grayer than I would like but I have it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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