kellyn Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 About 2 years ago, Mike Voigt was relying on a Holosight as his only sight for his AR. I talked to him about it as I thought that relying on a dot (even if only 1 MOA) was probably not the way to go. He said that he could shoot it out to 300+ yards on steel and that it was faster than a magnified scope. He also said that he could not shoot as good of groups with it as a magnified scope (not surprisingly). Given that the range of most 3 gunning is fairly close, he thought the speed advantage of a non-magnified dot beat out the accuracy advantage of a scope. I would also note that this year Mike relied on a variable scope and did not use a Holosight. Bennie Cooley did use a Holosight to win this year's North Carolina Tactical 3 gun. I have been a firm believer in the low-powered variable as the ultimate 3 gunning scope. Tony Holmes used one (a Leupold 1.5-5X I think) to win this year's open rifle at the 3 gun nationals. I used a Leupold 1.5-5X at North Carolina but Bennie's performance got me thinking.... I put a Holosight on an AR and gave it a try. I cannot shoot as good of groups with as I can with a scope or even good iron sights but I can manage about 2 MOA with no problem. I tried last weekend in the Pima Pistol Club 3 gun match. I was pleasantly surprised with how it performed on the "longrange" rifle course with targets from 25 to about 200 yards. Transitions were very fast. We were shooting lollipops at about 75 yards and steel "Q" targets and the new IPSC target from about 75 to 200 yards. I had no problem with the farther targets, though they were pretty large and any hit counted. The Holosight rocked on the short range assault course. With no magnification, I did not waste any time "dressing up" my sight picture. I am not yet convinced that the Holosight is the way to go as the sole sight - especially if there is a lot of distant paper targets - but I think it does have a place. Anyone else using one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvinez Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 kelly I put the new Holo on mine about a year ago and i dont think I'll ever take it off. I have yet to use it in 3-gun (dont have my shotgun setup for ipsc yet) but i have been shooting it out to 200 yards with paper and steel with good results. My results will most likely change when there is timers going. like you said 75 and in it is top notch. but out farther its takes some gettin used to. Dont know if this was helpfull to you or not but i tried. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 That's real interesting. We had Mike Voigt in to teach a class on 3-gun early this year. He all but said that just a dot won't cut it. He made a good point that a scope could make a huge difference in finding the far targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 6, 2002 Share Posted July 6, 2002 Kelly... I talked to you briefly at North Carolina... I shot a Bushnell holo this year instead of the ACOG after seeing all the EOTech sights on the guns last year... I have a pretty bad asthigmatism and wear bifocals, but the holographic image is much more precise for me than any other dot sights. My analysis for the past year pretty much mirrors your conclusion. We shoot a lot of paper plates here in Fla and it is extremely fast, and I typically dont have too much trouble on the larger 12in targets we shoot to 200m. I did drop one of the "red" targets at North Carolina from the low left position due to mirage (or fatigue) but other than that it worked exceptionally well (especially in the jungle run). I think Kyle said the targets were 8.5inches in diameter. I have access to one of the Trijicon 1.5 x 16 BAC modular scopes (trying to get a red triangle) and will give it a try this year... regards Les (Edited by kellyn at 10:49 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 I use an Aimpoint Comp M, but like Les, can't help but think the new Mini ACOG may be the way to go. The 2X model with the triangle reticle would seem to be good for both eyes open fast shooting and longer range plates. I've got my doubts about mounting it on the carry handle but a flat top installation could be the ultimate. I'd love to shoot with one before ordering it though! As for the Eo Tech, I've only used it in close. It's very fast and works well as a gaming sight. It's short battery life and rather clumsy switching would seem to leave a little bit to be desired for a duty sight, IMO. (Edited by DblTap at 4:35 pm on July 7, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted July 7, 2002 Share Posted July 7, 2002 Kelly forgot to mention that he won the match and on the long range stage he was 20 secs. faster than anyone else. The guys a wizard with a rifle. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 8, 2002 Author Share Posted July 8, 2002 Thanks Steve. I needed the long range rifle stage, I royally sucked with my pistol and shotgun. Not practicing with those damn shotgun speedloaders really hurt! I've talked to a couple of guys who have used the Holosight on duty and all really liked them. They said they were more durable than aimpoints, which I find surprising, and that the batteries lasted longer. In North Carolina, I noticed one real advantage of the Holosight. Here in AZ, it's sunny all the time and our ranges are in the desert with no trees. Scope reticles have no problem standing out. In North Carolina, there trees galore and it was much darker. Sometimes the crosshairs were a little slower to find. Next weekend, I'm going to shoot one AR with the Leupold 1.5-5X and another with the Holosight head to head. (Edited by kellyn at 6:52 pm on July 7, 2002) (Edited by kellyn at 10:16 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) (Edited by kellyn at 10:41 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) (Edited by kellyn at 11:14 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 Kelly I feel your pain, I sucked on every stage had 5 mikes on the pistol stage alone. I think you beat me by about 120 secs.Talk about haven your ass handed to you LOL. Let us know how your head to head trial comes out. I have been thinkin about a holo sight for awhile and would be real intersted in the outcome. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 I'm thinking too about putting an holosight on the handguard of my M4. What's the difference between the different type of Holosight, I saw three different models on the Bushmaster website, and of course three different prices. Also, what kind of reticle do you uses. DVC Julien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chi Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 kellyn, let us know which of the two you like. Scope or optic? I thouhgt you already had a 1x5 optic and really like that setup? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 9, 2002 Share Posted July 9, 2002 I just visited the EOTech plant on a writing assignment, and after viewing the damaged demo unit they had, I'm switching. The blown holosight had been on an M4 during a force on force training session with simunitions for DOE. The sight took a direct hit, which blew a hole in the front screen big enough to stick your fingertip into, and splattered the sight with paint. The operator didn't even notice until it was over, when someone asked "Dude, what's with your sight?" (Photos in the ensuing articles.) A week later I was on a military pop-up range, and had no trouble dropping the 300m targets with my (brand spanking) new holosight. All my other dots are going into storage, and I'm reconsidering other optics. (I can't seem to part with my Leupold 1.5-5, but I can just wrap it in velvet and store it, can't I?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 10, 2002 Share Posted July 10, 2002 Patrick... if you ever get a chance to go back to EOTech, see if they will make the longer unit that takes the AA (instead of the N's) batteries without the rheostat giz on the dot for those of us that dont have the night vision goggles. Good news is that Radio Shack usually has a lot of the N's on hand. regards Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 11, 2002 Author Share Posted July 11, 2002 DblTap, you might be right about battery life. All I can do is repeat what they said. Perhaps, they were using older Aimpoints. All I can say is now they are using Holosights and say they definitely prefer them over Aimpoints. I have an Aimpoint on my open shotgun and one as a secondary close-range sight on an open AR and really like them. I think the dot is too big for rifle shooting at any distance. Julien, for a rifle sight sight you want the standard reticle which has a 1 MOA dot. Finally, just because SF/Spetznatz/GSG9/SAS/the SEALS or Alexander the Great uses a piece of equipment does not mean that it is the thing to have (especially the SEALS). I do think that it speaks for a piece of equipment's durability however. (Edited by kellyn at 10:48 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DblTap Posted July 11, 2002 Share Posted July 11, 2002 No doubt about it, if a sight is durable enough for these guys it's gotta be tough. I'm not fond of the switching on the EO Tech but I can definitely see it has an advantage over the Aimpoint at longer ranges due to it's 1MOA inner reticle. It also doesn't require a separate mount. Like I said earlier, IMHO, the Mini ACOG is going to blow them all away. It's always on, is supposed to work with both eyes open in close, has magnification for longer shots and the triangle reticle would seem to be the way to go. Having said that, they're still new and I haven't had a chance to try one out. Anyone got trigger time with one yet? I'd love to hear some input. (Edited by DblTap at 7:29 am on July 11, 2002) (Edited by kellyn at 10:58 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 14, 2002 Author Share Posted July 14, 2002 Ok, I shot the 2 against each other today, in the Rio Salado Rifle-Shotgun match. This is certainly not the definitive test. There were 2 stages and I shot each one with both set-ups. The Holosight was on a JP rifle and the Leupold 1.5-5X was on an Accuracy Speaks AR. Short-range rifle stage: A bunch of very-close, tight shots through a maze of barricades finishing with 6 targets at 25 to 60 yards. The Holosight was a bit faster (about 7%) than the Leupold set on 1.5X. The speed advantage came from the closer targets where the magnification slowed me down. "Long"-range stage: A bunch of paper targets from 15-50 meters and 5 steel swingers at 100 to 150 meters. The Leupold took the Holosight down hard on this stage by about 50%. I felt I could pan faster with the Holo but I had trouble calling shots with it whereas if I had a hit or miss with the scope I knew instantly. The scope (set on 3X) was also able to distinguish a hard to see swinger better than the Holo. I didn't think that this was a fair sampling so I shot the Holo again and did better but I still could not match my scope times on the longer shots. Not a conclusive test by any means but it does correspond with my previous observations. I do feel that the Holo is by far the best allround dot for a rifle. If I was shooting a CMore, I'd still be out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Brown Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Has anyone with a Holosight taken it off and then re-mounted it to check if it is still zeroed? How does it do? Michael Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Michael... I routinely switch my Holo and ACOG back and forth without any noticable change of impact.... but like the confidence gained by a sight- in session before a match like Kyle's.... regards Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Brown Posted July 16, 2002 Share Posted July 16, 2002 Thanks. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 16, 2002 Share Posted September 16, 2002 I have an AR that will be wearing a holosight. Which reticle should I get for it? There is the 1moa dot, and then there is a dot with a cirle...I don't know what size it is. If the dot is still 1moa, then the cirle might help a shooter find it faster or index it for close targets? How should it be mounted? This is an A2 with carrying handle. (low $$$ are important) <edit> I found a thread that talks about the mouint. I'll bump it up and let that thread run it's course. A2 mount thread: http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=63&start=0 (Edited by Flexmoney at 9:07 pm on Sep. 15, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombstone Tactical Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 My main sight combo on an AR is an ACOG on the flat top and a Halo on the tube at 2 o'clock. The Halo is zeroed at 15yrds. Fast on close range targets with the ACOG accuracy if needed on the small or long stuff. I also have another Halo with a 50 vrd. zero for the flat top. Great sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 10, 2003 Author Share Posted March 10, 2003 Well, I decided to try the Holosight for the Mystery Mountain 3 gun. There were 4 stages that required rifle shooting: 1 hoser stage (LOTS of targets in a house w/ farthest shot 15ish yards); 1 short range stage involving all 3 guns(rifle shots were 1/2 targets at 25 to 50), 1 stage with both hoser and farther shots (5 steel, 3 of which were at 235 and a bunch of paper from 1 to 15 yards), and 1 rifle/shotgun stage (5 steel, 1 at 300, 2 at 185, and 2 at 60). Most people in tactical scope used an ACOG and Bennie Cooley used an US Optics SN4. The results were interesting if not definitive. I won the hoser stage beating the ACOG guys by about 5-15%. I had a miss on the short range course which which I even called but did not makeup because I'm a dumbass. Times were equivalent in that stage. On the stage involving both long and short range shots, Kurt Miller beat me by about 20% with his ACOG and superior shooting skill. The last stage, I cannot judge times as it was heavily oriented towards shotgun and I got a procedural for my pathetic grenade tossing. I hit the 300 yard target with no problem (even though I could hardly see it!) and had no makeup shots on the 235 yard targets. I had to make up one shot on 185 yard plate and 1 on a 100 yard plate. On the other hand, I actually got to aim on the hoser shots rather than just look down the bore and blaze as the better ACOG shooters were doing. I did feel that I was shooting slower on the farther targets than I do with a scope. Zero power means less visual feedback and I really had to buckle down and let the dot settle. It was kind of like shooting an iron sight with the dot serving as the tip of the post. Having to do it again, I'm still not sure which optic I would choose for MM3G. However I do feel that the Holosight is competitive in Tactical Scope class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddot Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Kellyn and crew, I am not anywhere close to the league you guys are competing in, but I am an experienced shooter in several disciplines and I cannot help but wonder why the Leupold CQT has been omitted from you discussion. I find it to be adaptable to many situations and it only needs a battery if you want to shoot in the dark. The 1X3 and circle-dot reticle seem to be about perfect for 3-gun. I can easily shoot sub MOA at 100 yds with mine. A little spendy, but A fine scope. Just 2 pennies from a little guy. RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted March 11, 2003 Author Share Posted March 11, 2003 There were quite a few CQTs at Mystery Mountain. They are good sights but since I already have a holosight and an ACOG, I'm not going to go get a CQT. CQTs split the distance between the holosight and the ACOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Reddot: I don't know why it hasn't really caught on!! I think the Leopold is a GREAT scope!! Although I find the Bindon doughnut in the TA-11 to be more precise at longer ranges because it is hollow in the center there is nothing wrong with the CQT. I don't in general like variables and have worked out a way to shoot the TA-11 at close range so I won't be jumping ship to get a CQT ( besides Trijicon is my main sponsor). I will say that for 300yd stuff and closer it is probablly more a matter of which one you get use to. Pacman did just fine with his CQT at his first ever major match (mm3g) and shot rifle with the best of them! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted March 12, 2003 Share Posted March 12, 2003 Kelly....what typr of Holo sight are you using and type of dot/reticle?? I use a 1.5x6 Bushnell (had a 3x9) and it has a Grams mount with an Aimpoint stuck on it. I have not bought the mount and Aimpoint, but was thinking about the EO sight instead. Do you feel the EO is better? I have a friend who can machine a Delrin mount so I'm not too worried about having a mount build for the EO attached to the Bushnell. Thanks......... (Edited by kellyn at 10:43 pm on Mar. 12, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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