Almost DQ'd

[Paul-the new guy]

This weekend I was shooting in what I thought was going to be an awesome Match... 8 exciting stages that included 4 stages that were part of a "postal match" My game started badly, in the first stage you were supposed to verbalize "get back" I was joking about what I was going to say with my son and a few of the other people shooting. However when the buzzer went off I said..... " " nothing! Procedurel no. 1 for the day .01 seconds into the first stage.

Second stage, From in the open you were supposed to engage 2 targets, 2 shots each while retreating to cover. You started the stage with only 3 rounds in the gun. This meant you would be at slide lock in about 2 seconds. Not being a seasoned shooter as soon as the gun went to slide lock, I hit the mag release dropped the magazine, thus initiating the reload before I was behind cover. PE no. 2

Same stage, from behind cover you were to engage the target that you only partially engaged and also one more target after which you were to do a mandatory reload with retention, ooopps, i was already at the next set of targets before I remembered that so before firing a shot I ran back and did my reload with retention avoiding the 3rd PE of the morning. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the overly helpful lady keeping score who was hollering "finger" at me in spite of the fact that my finger was 15' from the trigger guard. Sometimes she was hollering "move" even if the stage did not call for shooting on the move and then of course at the end of every shooter she was hollering "pasters" She really was quite annoying, but that is a whole seperate issue.

Next stage... 4 square You engage 3 targets one shot each while moving around a square. I had loaded 6 rounds thinking rather than having to reload after 11 rounds and firing only one round I would do a slide lock reload after six rounds allowing me to reload while moving (yes, I was trying to game the stage). I asked at the last minute if that was ok and was told no, makes sense, so I uploaded the magazine to division capicity (or so I thought) The stage called for 12 rounds total and I shot the whole thing with no reload... PE no. 3! By now any hope for a decent match is flying out the window...

Next... Postal stage, it starts el presidente syle, You are standing in the open, facing up range with your gun loaded to 6 rounds total. You engage 3 targets, 2 shots each, the gun is at slide lock, you run up to low cover, reload and engage the same targets again 2 shots each. Just as I was reaching the barrels and dropping to my knees I ejected the spent mag. It hit the ground before my knees....PE no. 4. However the lady that was worried about my finger and pasters and moving and everything else did not bother to record my time. (I guess she was too busy) So, I avoided PE no. 4 by getting a re-shoot.

Next stage, I am talking to my son, he has only shot a couple of matches, and we are going over the stage. I am holding up my "air gun" saying to him, you shoot this guy, then this guy etc... then the helpful lady screams "no air gunning" I was frustrated by the whole ordeal and kind of got an attitude. I was like really.... he is new and he is unclassified...seriously, give me a break. So i started this stage kind of on edge. So the senario is you are holding a money bag standing on the drivers side of a truck and you have to engage 2 targets strong hand only while backing up around the truck to the other side; you were supposed to drop the bag when you got around the truck on the up range side.... I dropped it as soon as I got to the back of the truck and had to go back to get it thus avoiding PE no. 4 again...for a minute... The stage only called for 10 rounds total and you had to drop to low cover for the last 2 shots. On the way down I hit the mag release by accident and dropped a mag that still had rounds in it... you guessed it, PE no. 4 I grabbed a fresh mag jammed it in and engaged the last target. Then the moment we all hate... I was on my knees, I knew I had just messed up by dropping the loaded mag. The RO tells me unload and show clear, I dropped the mag, racked the slide and engaged the slide stop... he then said "I see it, slide, hammer".....he for whatever reason did not say holster...and I didn't... I had a severe case of dumb ass hit me and I did not holster my weapon. Instead, I turned up range while on my knees and went to pick up my 2 magazines that were on the ground thus pointing the muzzle of the gun uprange towards all the other people... The RO screamed at me muzzle and I was so mad at my self I did the childish thing and screamed back at him "you never told me to holster" It was not his fault, it was mine. For whatever reason my head was just not all the way in the game... It was a serious error and I feel like a jerk for screaming at the RO who was just trying to keep us all safe.

[jar]

I don't understand the title, how were you almost DQ'd? There's no almost about pointing a gun at the gallery.

[PeterMor]

Agreed, this is a clear Dairy Queen no exceptions!

Edited November 29, 2010 by PeterMor

[Merlin Orr]

Well.... You made it through the match without shooting your toe. Take away anything good you can remember and work on your mental game..... You will do better - just stay calm.

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated “Muzzle Safe Points”.

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

[smokshwn]

Why are you blaming the score keeper????.....regardless of their behavior you are the one with the deadly weapon in your hand.

Sit down, and review the day and make the corrections necessary, and then drive on.

[Kyle O]

Sounds like you need some USPSA in your life! It's a lot more friendly, as far as the "procedurals" go.

Seriously though, being a new shooter, sometimes it's better to learn the game's rules the hard way (by buying them with procedurals).

But, if it's firearm safety rules then please know them by heart, and practice them always. It's the only reason these sports are as safe as they are. Have fun, and don't let other people bother you mentally, at this point your only shooting against yourself. Slow down, and be smooth. Hope your not too discouraged. Just get back out there, and you'll find that you learn new things each time.

[Jadeslade]

Paul, you are really good writer. Keep posting. I enjoyed reading about your experience. All shooters undergo this experience, but few have the aplomb to actually let us in on it. Thanks. You will be way better next time.

[shooting for M]

Second stage, From in the open you were supposed to engage 2 targets, 2 shots each while retreating to cover. You started the stage with only 3 rounds in the gun. This meant you would be at slide lock in about 2 seconds. Not being a seasoned shooter as soon as the gun went to slide lock, I hit the mag release dropped the magazine, thus initiating the reload before I was behind cover. PE no. 2

Reloading an already empty gun out of cover is a penalty!? Sheesh, I guess that's good to know if I ever shoot IDPA again.

[xxdabroxx]

I don't know that a couple of the PE's should be PE's. If you run dry while on your way to cover you are allowed to reload on the move are you not?

Where is my rulebook?

Unless they were specified to be in a certain location by the COF?

Edited November 30, 2010 by xxdabroxx

[sirveyr]

We've all had really bad stages during a match. You just happened to have a lot of bad stages at once. It is hard to get your mind right after even the smallest brain fart. Sometimes, it is easier to learn what not to do by doing it wrong. I am a fan of the trial by fire method myself. Lord knows I've been burned. Keep your head up, shoot straight, and keep the muzzle pointed downrange. It will get better!

Edited November 30, 2010 by sirveyr

[Merlin Orr]

I don't know that a couple of the PE's should be PE's. If you run dry while on your way to cover you are allowed to reload on the move are you not?

Where is my rulebook?

Unless they were specified to be in a certain location by the COF?

Nope.... Cover every time.....

[Steve J]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

[twodownzero]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

There are no local rules and there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Glad you finished unscathed. My only comment is overly verbal SOs///ROs. I think in both sports local help needs to stop playing coach. Saw it at a USPSA match. Let the shooter make his mistakes and give the PE. If your not moving and are supposed to you earned it.

As far as the dropped mag, pick it up before moving or before unload and show clear and avoid the PE

[Paul-the new guy]

Thanks for al the constructive comments. There was one last stage after this stage and I was very tempted to not finish. I was pretty rattled by the whole ordeal. My son encouraged me to shoot the last stage and I am glad he did. It went well, I did not get a PE the gun ran great and i had no issues. I shot it pretty fast, for an old guy, and I got all my hits. It was good to end the day on a positive note.

In hind sight, I believe the muzzle was pointed "mostly" at the ground and that is why I was not DQ'd. Oh and I was not blaming the overly helpful and excessively vocal score keeper, I was more pointing out that those distractions were unnecessary. I take 100% of the blame for this error and for my unwarranted reaction to the RO.

[Steve J]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

There are no local rules and there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

You are wrong. Here is a sister thread > http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/6788?page=-1

[Paul Burtchell]

When a shooter turns uprgange with an unholstered pistol, the term "excessively vocal" SO or RO ceases to exist .

Edited November 30, 2010 by Paul Burtchell

[Merlin Orr]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

There are no local rules and there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

You are wrong. Here is a sister thread > http://idpaforum.yuk...ic/6788?page=-1

Actually Steve....Pointing to your opinion in a thread on another forum does not the definitive answer make..... The IDPA rule book specifically states there is no 180 rule. We can let this deteriorate into an "intent" or "common sense dictates" discussion..but the rule book is clear. If you issue a DQ because of safe muzzle points, unsafe gun handling or range rules - that is within IDPA guidelines... but you can't call it for the 180 when the rulebook specifies there is none.

[jar]

Actually Steve....Pointing to your opinion in a thread on another forum does not the definitive answer make..... The IDPA rule book specifically states there is no 180 rule. We can let this deteriorate into an "intent" or "common sense dictates" discussion..but the rule book is clear. If you issue a DQ because of safe muzzle points, unsafe gun handling or range rules - that is within IDPA guidelines... but you can't call it for the 180 when the rulebook specifies there is none.

Do you specify muzzle safe points for every stage? How do you adjust for moving shooters? Every club I've shot at specifies that the muzzle safe points are the 180 unless otherwise specified. I've seen it widened slightly for when a target was to be engaged directly to the side of the shooter, and narrowed when putting multiple stages in a bay.

[grkmec]

Sounds like you might be better suited for USPSA than IDPA

[Steve J]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

There are no local rules and there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

You are wrong. Here is a sister thread > http://idpaforum.yuk...ic/6788?page=-1

Actually Steve....Pointing to your opinion in a thread on another forum does not the definitive answer make..... The IDPA rule book specifically states there is no 180 rule. We can let this deteriorate into an "intent" or "common sense dictates" discussion..but the rule book is clear. If you issue a DQ because of safe muzzle points, unsafe gun handling or range rules - that is within IDPA guidelines... but you can't call it for the 180 when the rulebook specifies there is none.

Well then, I invite you to look at the thread again and check out the opinion of the Area Coordinators and Safety Officer Instructors who are also posting there. If the range has a 180 rule or even narrower, then your IDPA match will have a 180 rule, and that angle follows the shooter down range, whereas muzzle safe points are in a fixed location allowing the shooter to point the muzzle of the gun up range to the limit of the muzzle safe point. Sanctioned IDPA matches with HQ officials present have also used the 180 rule since that printing of the rule book. It is well documented that local safety rules regarding safe muzzle limits do take precedence at IDPA matches. The wording of the rule book allows for flexibility. It was never intended as a mandate.

.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Steve J

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sounds like you need some USPSA in your life! It's a lot more friendly, as far as the "procedurals" go.

Seriously though, being a new shooter, sometimes it's better to learn the game's rules the hard way (by buying them with procedurals).

+1

I had to DQ my father-in-law at his first match.

[Merlin Orr]

I understand common sense. I am all for common sense and have been told I have shown it upon occasion. I understand the common sense and the specific range rules thing. I did not say anything about specific club rules...I quoted directly from a copy/paste from the IDPA Bible.

If you read my post I did not say a DQ was not needed or called for or justified.

What I did say I still stand behind.

If it is in the IDPA Rulebook we should do what it says. It DOES say something about the 180. Specifically.

If it is Not in the IDPA Rulebook we should base our calls on something other than the Rulebook, whether it be Range Rules or Club Rules or just plain common sense, and call it like it is.

At our IDPA shoots at the Rio Grand Valley Shooters the first thing on the written instructions read at the start of every match we tell the shooters that a 180 violation sends you home. No exceptions. It is both a Club Rule and a Range Rule..... but it ain't an IDPA Rule.

As to " The wording of the rule book allows for flexibility. It was never intended as a mandate. " Puleease..... Interpretation of words that are not actually written is why the IDPA Forum is in a constant state of turmoil. How can you justify adding (Your) words to the book and in the next breath tell others that they can't add words to the book and THEN point to the book as the Ultimate Authority.....?

Edited December 13, 2010 by Merlin Orr

[Paul Burtchell]

I dearly miss the " popcorn emoticon"

[Jim Watson]

I turned up range while on my knees and went to pick up my 2 magazines that were on the ground thus pointing the muzzle of the gun uprange towards all the other people

I cannot see how this would be anything other than a DQ. If I were SO, he would be long gone under rule S1A: A. Endangering any person, including yourself. If you nitpicked me over not telling him to holster, "no 180", etc, etc. you would join him under rule PC2A: Disqualification (DQ) Results from unsportsmanlike conduct because I consider trying to keep an unsafe shooter shooting to be unsportsmanlike.

I once had to tell an easygoing (spineless) SO that the guy who had swept me and was going to "get a good talking to" in lieu of a DQ would be done for the day or I would. He DQed the guy with an apology. Geez.

There are not enough DQs in the game. I think all the internet and gunzine publicity about ordinary guns for IDPA draws a lot of absolute novices and they are not instructed as well or policed as strictly as they should be.