Almost DQ'd

[twodownzero]

The turning around with the gun. IN ITSELF - is not a DQ per the IDPA rulebook. It was definitely unsafe gun handling.....

B. Pointing muzzle beyond designated "Muzzle Safe Points".

A 180° rule does NOT exist and will NOT be grounds for DQ.

Merlin, that is not the intent of the rule. Muzzle safe points may extend the 180 where it is safe and the range allows it. Most ranges though do have a 180 policy regardless of the venue and it will be grounds for a DQ at those ranges. Breaking whatever plane has been declared safe with a loaded or unloaded gun is a disqualification for unsafe gun handling in IDPA. Instead of lots and lots of words, the IDPA rule book relies of common sense application. I wish it was more specific where unsafe gun handling is concerned.

There are no local rules and there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

You are wrong. Here is a sister thread > http://idpaforum.yuk...ic/6788?page=-1

Actually Steve....Pointing to your opinion in a thread on another forum does not the definitive answer make..... The IDPA rule book specifically states there is no 180 rule. We can let this deteriorate into an "intent" or "common sense dictates" discussion..but the rule book is clear. If you issue a DQ because of safe muzzle points, unsafe gun handling or range rules - that is within IDPA guidelines... but you can't call it for the 180 when the rulebook specifies there is none.

Well then, I invite you to look at the thread again and check out the opinion of the Area Coordinators and Safety Officer Instructors who are also posting there. If the range has a 180 rule or even narrower, then your IDPA match will have a 180 rule, and that angle follows the shooter down range, whereas muzzle safe points are in a fixed location allowing the shooter to point the muzzle of the gun up range to the limit of the muzzle safe point. Sanctioned IDPA matches with HQ officials present have also used the 180 rule since that printing of the rule book. It is well documented that local safety rules regarding safe muzzle limits do take precedence at IDPA matches. The wording of the rule book allows for flexibility. It was never intended as a mandate.

.

I'm glad we're clear now that there's no 180 rule in IDPA and no local rules. Or at least I thought we were from reading this.

I don't shoot much IDPA, but I think it's one of their rules that actually makes sense, especially because targets are sometimes very close to the 180, and our rule gives us no discretion.

Enforcing a 180 rule in IDPA that "moves with the shooter" negates the entire purpose of their rule, which is to eliminate precisely that, and specify where you can point your gun and where you can't.

Their rule is harder to enforce fairly but from a perspective of safety, it has always made more sense to me.

[Gruyere]

Sounds like you need some USPSA in your life! It's a lot more friendly, as far as the "procedurals" go.

Seriously though, being a new shooter, sometimes it's better to learn the game's rules the hard way (by buying them with procedurals).

But, if it's firearm safety rules then please know them by heart, and practice them always. It's the only reason these sports are as safe as they are. Have fun, and don't let other people bother you mentally, at this point your only shooting against yourself. Slow down, and be smooth. Hope your not too discouraged. Just get back out there, and you'll find that you learn new things each time.

Agreed! USPSA: The land of no PEs (practically), No rule Nazis (mostly) and No vests (really)!

[DT Guy]

180 or not, wouldn't pointing the muzzle at any other human beings automatically be an 'unsafe gun handling' DQ?

Especially if they start shooting back.....

Larry

Edited December 30, 2010 by DT Guy

[martial_field]

This weekend I was shooting in what I thought was going to be an awesome Match... 8 exciting stages that included 4 stages that were part of a "postal match" My game started badly, in the first stage you were supposed to verbalize "get back" I was joking about what I was going to say with my son and a few of the other people shooting. However when the buzzer went off I said..... " " nothing! Procedurel no. 1 for the day .01 seconds into the first stage.

Second stage, From in the open you were supposed to engage 2 targets, 2 shots each while retreating to cover. You started the stage with only 3 rounds in the gun. This meant you would be at slide lock in about 2 seconds. Not being a seasoned shooter as soon as the gun went to slide lock, I hit the mag release dropped the magazine, thus initiating the reload before I was behind cover. PE no. 2

Same stage, from behind cover you were to engage the target that you only partially engaged and also one more target after which you were to do a mandatory reload with retention, ooopps, i was already at the next set of targets before I remembered that so before firing a shot I ran back and did my reload with retention avoiding the 3rd PE of the morning. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the overly helpful lady keeping score who was hollering "finger" at me in spite of the fact that my finger was 15' from the trigger guard. Sometimes she was hollering "move" even if the stage did not call for shooting on the move and then of course at the end of every shooter she was hollering "pasters" She really was quite annoying, but that is a whole seperate issue.

Next stage... 4 square You engage 3 targets one shot each while moving around a square. I had loaded 6 rounds thinking rather than having to reload after 11 rounds and firing only one round I would do a slide lock reload after six rounds allowing me to reload while moving (yes, I was trying to game the stage). I asked at the last minute if that was ok and was told no, makes sense, so I uploaded the magazine to division capicity (or so I thought) The stage called for 12 rounds total and I shot the whole thing with no reload... PE no. 3! By now any hope for a decent match is flying out the window...

Next... Postal stage, it starts el presidente syle, You are standing in the open, facing up range with your gun loaded to 6 rounds total. You engage 3 targets, 2 shots each, the gun is at slide lock, you run up to low cover, reload and engage the same targets again 2 shots each. Just as I was reaching the barrels and dropping to my knees I ejected the spent mag. It hit the ground before my knees....PE no. 4. However the lady that was worried about my finger and pasters and moving and everything else did not bother to record my time. (I guess she was too busy) So, I avoided PE no. 4 by getting a re-shoot.

Next stage, I am talking to my son, he has only shot a couple of matches, and we are going over the stage. I am holding up my "air gun" saying to him, you shoot this guy, then this guy etc... then the helpful lady screams "no air gunning" I was frustrated by the whole ordeal and kind of got an attitude. I was like really.... he is new and he is unclassified...seriously, give me a break. So i started this stage kind of on edge. So the senario is you are holding a money bag standing on the drivers side of a truck and you have to engage 2 targets strong hand only while backing up around the truck to the other side; you were supposed to drop the bag when you got around the truck on the up range side.... I dropped it as soon as I got to the back of the truck and had to go back to get it thus avoiding PE no. 4 again...for a minute... The stage only called for 10 rounds total and you had to drop to low cover for the last 2 shots. On the way down I hit the mag release by accident and dropped a mag that still had rounds in it... you guessed it, PE no. 4 I grabbed a fresh mag jammed it in and engaged the last target. Then the moment we all hate... I was on my knees, I knew I had just messed up by dropping the loaded mag. The RO tells me unload and show clear, I dropped the mag, racked the slide and engaged the slide stop... he then said "I see it, slide, hammer".....he for whatever reason did not say holster...and I didn't... I had a severe case of dumb ass hit me and I did not holster my weapon. Instead, I turned up range while on my knees and went to pick up my 2 magazines that were on the ground thus pointing the muzzle of the gun uprange towards all the other people... The RO screamed at me muzzle and I was so mad at my self I did the childish thing and screamed back at him "you never told me to holster" It was not his fault, it was mine. For whatever reason my head was just not all the way in the game... It was a serious error and I feel like a jerk for screaming at the RO who was just trying to keep us all safe.

Your description of the course of fire is why I shoot IDPA only when there are no USPSA matches available within a reasonable distance. USPSA - higher round count, much more flexibility in terms of how to shoot the COF, far fewer procedural traps, wider diversity of types of guns that can be used all add up to a much more enjoyable shooting experience for many of us who love handgun competitions. Of course, the safety issues are very much the same for both disciplines so the extra mental energy spent on conforming to IDPA COF requirements and reacting to the procedural penalties serves as no excuse for what happened here. For my money, though, I will take USPSA ANY day of the week as will most of the USPSA shooters I know.

[ima45dv8]

Your description of the course of fire is why I shoot IDPA only when there are no USPSA matches available within a reasonable distance. USPSA - higher round count, much more flexibility in terms of how to shoot the COF, far fewer procedural traps, wider diversity of types of guns that can be used all add up to a much more enjoyable shooting experience for many of us who love handgun competitions. Of course, the safety issues are very much the same for both disciplines so the extra mental energy spent on conforming to IDPA COF requirements and reacting to the procedural penalties serves as no excuse for what happened here. For my money, though, I will take USPSA ANY day of the week as will most of the USPSA shooters I know.

How about we cool it with the IDPA vs. USPSA stuff. That is specifically not allowed.

For more information, please refer to the Forum Guidelines, conveniently linked the top of every forum page for your viewing pleasure.

Thanks...

[West Texas Granny]

This weekend I was shooting in what I thought was going to be an awesome Match... 8 exciting stages that included 4 stages that were part of a "postal match" My game started badly, in the first stage you were supposed to verbalize "get back" I was joking about what I was going to say with my son and a few of the other people shooting. However when the buzzer went off I said..... " " nothing! Procedurel no. 1 for the day .01 seconds into the first stage.

Second stage, From in the open you were supposed to engage 2 targets, 2 shots each while retreating to cover. You started the stage with only 3 rounds in the gun. This meant you would be at slide lock in about 2 seconds. Not being a seasoned shooter as soon as the gun went to slide lock, I hit the mag release dropped the magazine, thus initiating the reload before I was behind cover. PE no. 2

Same stage, from behind cover you were to engage the target that you only partially engaged and also one more target after which you were to do a mandatory reload with retention, ooopps, i was already at the next set of targets before I remembered that so before firing a shot I ran back and did my reload with retention avoiding the 3rd PE of the morning. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the overly helpful lady keeping score who was hollering "finger" at me in spite of the fact that my finger was 15' from the trigger guard. Sometimes she was hollering "move" even if the stage did not call for shooting on the move and then of course at the end of every shooter she was hollering "pasters" She really was quite annoying, but that is a whole seperate issue.

Next stage... 4 square You engage 3 targets one shot each while moving around a square. I had loaded 6 rounds thinking rather than having to reload after 11 rounds and firing only one round I would do a slide lock reload after six rounds allowing me to reload while moving (yes, I was trying to game the stage). I asked at the last minute if that was ok and was told no, makes sense, so I uploaded the magazine to division capicity (or so I thought) The stage called for 12 rounds total and I shot the whole thing with no reload... PE no. 3! By now any hope for a decent match is flying out the window...

Next... Postal stage, it starts el presidente syle, You are standing in the open, facing up range with your gun loaded to 6 rounds total. You engage 3 targets, 2 shots each, the gun is at slide lock, you run up to low cover, reload and engage the same targets again 2 shots each. Just as I was reaching the barrels and dropping to my knees I ejected the spent mag. It hit the ground before my knees....PE no. 4. However the lady that was worried about my finger and pasters and moving and everything else did not bother to record my time. (I guess she was too busy) So, I avoided PE no. 4 by getting a re-shoot.

Next stage, I am talking to my son, he has only shot a couple of matches, and we are going over the stage. I am holding up my "air gun" saying to him, you shoot this guy, then this guy etc... then the helpful lady screams "no air gunning" I was frustrated by the whole ordeal and kind of got an attitude. I was like really.... he is new and he is unclassified...seriously, give me a break. So i started this stage kind of on edge. So the senario is you are holding a money bag standing on the drivers side of a truck and you have to engage 2 targets strong hand only while backing up around the truck to the other side; you were supposed to drop the bag when you got around the truck on the up range side.... I dropped it as soon as I got to the back of the truck and had to go back to get it thus avoiding PE no. 4 again...for a minute... The stage only called for 10 rounds total and you had to drop to low cover for the last 2 shots. On the way down I hit the mag release by accident and dropped a mag that still had rounds in it... you guessed it, PE no. 4 I grabbed a fresh mag jammed it in and engaged the last target. Then the moment we all hate... I was on my knees, I knew I had just messed up by dropping the loaded mag. The RO tells me unload and show clear, I dropped the mag, racked the slide and engaged the slide stop... he then said "I see it, slide, hammer".....he for whatever reason did not say holster...and I didn't... I had a severe case of dumb ass hit me and I did not holster my weapon. Instead, I turned up range while on my knees and went to pick up my 2 magazines that were on the ground thus pointing the muzzle of the gun uprange towards all the other people... The RO screamed at me muzzle and I was so mad at my self I did the childish thing and screamed back at him "you never told me to holster" It was not his fault, it was mine. For whatever reason my head was just not all the way in the game... It was a serious error and I feel like a jerk for screaming at the RO who was just trying to keep us all safe.

Just curious. Our RO's in the safety briefing say that no one is to move down range unti the RO says the range is clear. Now if that's the way it's supposed to be done why were people down range and the shooter had not holstered the weapon. That's the failure of the RO not the shooter.

[ima45dv8]

This weekend I was shooting in what I thought was going to be an awesome Match... 8 exciting stages that included 4 stages that were part of a "postal match" My game started badly, in the first stage you were supposed to verbalize "get back" I was joking about what I was going to say with my son and a few of the other people shooting. However when the buzzer went off I said..... " " nothing! Procedurel no. 1 for the day .01 seconds into the first stage.

Second stage, From in the open you were supposed to engage 2 targets, 2 shots each while retreating to cover. You started the stage with only 3 rounds in the gun. This meant you would be at slide lock in about 2 seconds. Not being a seasoned shooter as soon as the gun went to slide lock, I hit the mag release dropped the magazine, thus initiating the reload before I was behind cover. PE no. 2

Same stage, from behind cover you were to engage the target that you only partially engaged and also one more target after which you were to do a mandatory reload with retention, ooopps, i was already at the next set of targets before I remembered that so before firing a shot I ran back and did my reload with retention avoiding the 3rd PE of the morning. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the overly helpful lady keeping score who was hollering "finger" at me in spite of the fact that my finger was 15' from the trigger guard. Sometimes she was hollering "move" even if the stage did not call for shooting on the move and then of course at the end of every shooter she was hollering "pasters" She really was quite annoying, but that is a whole seperate issue.

Next stage... 4 square You engage 3 targets one shot each while moving around a square. I had loaded 6 rounds thinking rather than having to reload after 11 rounds and firing only one round I would do a slide lock reload after six rounds allowing me to reload while moving (yes, I was trying to game the stage). I asked at the last minute if that was ok and was told no, makes sense, so I uploaded the magazine to division capicity (or so I thought) The stage called for 12 rounds total and I shot the whole thing with no reload... PE no. 3! By now any hope for a decent match is flying out the window...

Next... Postal stage, it starts el presidente syle, You are standing in the open, facing up range with your gun loaded to 6 rounds total. You engage 3 targets, 2 shots each, the gun is at slide lock, you run up to low cover, reload and engage the same targets again 2 shots each. Just as I was reaching the barrels and dropping to my knees I ejected the spent mag. It hit the ground before my knees....PE no. 4. However the lady that was worried about my finger and pasters and moving and everything else did not bother to record my time. (I guess she was too busy) So, I avoided PE no. 4 by getting a re-shoot.

Next stage, I am talking to my son, he has only shot a couple of matches, and we are going over the stage. I am holding up my "air gun" saying to him, you shoot this guy, then this guy etc... then the helpful lady screams "no air gunning" I was frustrated by the whole ordeal and kind of got an attitude. I was like really.... he is new and he is unclassified...seriously, give me a break. So i started this stage kind of on edge. So the senario is you are holding a money bag standing on the drivers side of a truck and you have to engage 2 targets strong hand only while backing up around the truck to the other side; you were supposed to drop the bag when you got around the truck on the up range side.... I dropped it as soon as I got to the back of the truck and had to go back to get it thus avoiding PE no. 4 again...for a minute... The stage only called for 10 rounds total and you had to drop to low cover for the last 2 shots. On the way down I hit the mag release by accident and dropped a mag that still had rounds in it... you guessed it, PE no. 4 I grabbed a fresh mag jammed it in and engaged the last target. Then the moment we all hate... I was on my knees, I knew I had just messed up by dropping the loaded mag. The RO tells me unload and show clear, I dropped the mag, racked the slide and engaged the slide stop... he then said "I see it, slide, hammer".....he for whatever reason did not say holster...and I didn't... I had a severe case of dumb ass hit me and I did not holster my weapon. Instead, I turned up range while on my knees and went to pick up my 2 magazines that were on the ground thus pointing the muzzle of the gun uprange towards all the other people... The RO screamed at me muzzle and I was so mad at my self I did the childish thing and screamed back at him "you never told me to holster" It was not his fault, it was mine. For whatever reason my head was just not all the way in the game... It was a serious error and I feel like a jerk for screaming at the RO who was just trying to keep us all safe.

Just curious. Our RO's in the safety briefing say that no one is to move down range unti the RO says the range is clear. Now if that's the way it's supposed to be done why were people down range and the shooter had not holstered the weapon. That's the failure of the RO not the shooter.

He said they were 'uprange'. He turned into the crowd.