shooting through another target requires reshoot?

[wackodacko]

Hello! Today i was asked to reshoot after my front target got 3 shots, and my rear target got 5 shots (3A, 2C). I directly shot the front target 3x, and the rear target 2x. When they were scoring, they couldnt tell which of the 5 shots on the rear target were NOT the pass through shots, so they had me reshoot.

In the rulebook, it says in 9.1.6.1 to ignore the highest scoring hit(s) in this case - 3 Alphas, and my score would be 2Charlies regardless of what I actually directly shot at the rear target itself. However, rule 9.1.6.1 is only for HARD COVER pass throughs, and not Impenetrable Pass throughs.

What do you think?

[Nik Habicht]

Hello! Today i was asked to reshoot after my front target got 3 shots, and my rear target got 5 shots (3A, 2C). I directly shot the front target 3x, and the rear target 2x. When they were scoring, they couldnt tell which of the 5 shots on the rear target were NOT the pass through shots, so they had me reshoot.

Probably the right call -- impossible to tell for certain without being there at the time.

In the rulebook, it says in 9.1.6.1 to ignore the highest scoring hit(s) in this case - 3 Alphas, and my score would be 2Charlies regardless of what I actually directly shot at the rear target itself. However, rule 9.1.6.1 is only for HARD COVER pass throughs, and not Impenetrable Pass throughs.

What do you think?

Actually, here's what 9.1.6.1 says:

9.1.6.1 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to strike any scoring paper target or no-shoot, that shot will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

Since 9.1.6.1 doesn't tell us to ignore the highest scoring hits, as an RO I'd have to be able to tell conclusively which hits on the rear target corresponded to the hits that passed through the front target. If I couldn't determine that, I'd order a reshoot....

[wide45]

In the rulebook, it says in 9.1.6.1 to ignore the highest scoring hit(s) in this case - 3 Alphas, and my score would be 2Charlies regardless of what I actually directly shot at the rear target itself. However, rule 9.1.6.1 is only for HARD COVER pass throughs, and not Impenetrable Pass throughs.

No, in current versions of the rulebook, 9.1.6.1 says that the actual full diameter shoot throughs won't score on the second target. No rule allows the RO to simply take the best, or worst hits in a shoot through situation.

When they were scoring, they couldnt tell which of the 5 shots on the rear target were NOT the pass through shots, so they had me reshoot.

This is correct

Edited November 28, 2010 by wide45

[sperman]

This is really a stage design problem. But if it comes up halfway through the match there isn't much of a remedy for the stage.

9.1.5 addresses targets and no-shoots being impenetrable. 9.1.6 addresses props that are deemed hardcover. Neither rule mentions which shots to use and which to ignore. (Maybe you have an older copy of the rulebook.)

While 9.1.4 deals with unrestored targets, I would use it as guidance in this case. If an accurate score cannot be determined, "the affected competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire."

Never mind. I just read the IPSC rulebook and it has the wording you mentioned. Was the match run under USPSA or IPSC rules?

[wackodacko]

OOPS, i was looking at the IPSC rulebook, not the USPSA rulebook. It was a USPSA match. But either way, yes, it doesnt specifically say to ignore the highest/lowest shots so the order to reshoot was correct. Thanks guys!

[twodownzero]

OOPS, i was looking at the IPSC rulebook, not the USPSA rulebook. It was a USPSA match. But either way, yes, it doesnt specifically say to ignore the highest/lowest shots so the order to reshoot was correct. Thanks guys!

Welcome to the United States, and Brian's forums.

[Dave Campbell]

OK, If all the shots hit the first target, and this was a USPSA match , wouldn't the scoring be 2 "A" on the front target and 2 "M" on the back, as hits totally in the scoring area, are deemed to be impenetrable? 9.1.5.1

If the front target was not taped and proper scoring could not be determined a 9.1.4 , a reshoot.

If it was set up so this was possible, it was,for certain a stage design problem, and only if there was a plate or popper that was knocked down after the bullet passed thru the front target, would there be a reshoot.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Dave Campbell

[wide45]

OK, If all the shots hit the first target, and this was a USPSA match , wouldn't the scoring be 2 "A" on the front target and 2 "M" on the back, as hits totally in the scoring area, are deemed to be impenetrable? 9.1.5.1

If the front target was not taped and proper scoring could not be determined a 9.1.4 , a reshoot.

If it was set up so this was possible, it was,for certain a stage design problem, and only if there was a plate or popper that was knocked down after the bullet passed thru the front target, would there be a reshoot.

The OP said there were 3 shots on the first target, not 5. He said that it could not be determined which shots were shoot throughs, and there were 3A's and 2C's on the 2nd target.

Edited November 28, 2010 by wide45

[Dave Campbell]

Sorry, Read it wrong.

Seems like a reshoot then, 9.1.4. Ro must judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined.

[mhs]

This seems like a case where you would have a good chance of determining the scoring hits based on grease rings.

[de03x7]

New shooter here and I don't claim to have an answer. I don't know the COF but you usually score the two best hits on the target if it's a comstock count stage, which I guess it was as the OP said there was three shots on the front target. It would seem to me that the three worst hits on the rear target would not be counted as ther dosen't apper to be a no shoot involved.

[Flexmoney]

New shooter here and I don't claim to have an answer. I don't know the COF but you usually score the two best hits on the target if it's a comstock count stage, which I guess it was as the OP said there was three shots on the front target. It would seem to me that the three worst hits on the rear target would not be counted as ther dosen't apper to be a no shoot involved.

The issue is that the hits on the first target cannot be counted as "hits" on the second target. Even though our bullets travel through cardboard pretty easy, we consider the targets to be impenetrable...and any full bullet diameter hit cannot travel on and count for score on a target that is further downrange.

And, since (as stated, I believe) you can't tell which of the 5 hits on the latter target were the shoot-throughs from the first target...you cannot determine an accurate score on that latter target. (You don't get to pick which holes you like the best/worse...they have got to be the true "hits" that are on that target.)

Does that make sense?

[de03x7]

New shooter here and I don't claim to have an answer. I don't know the COF but you usually score the two best hits on the target if it's a comstock count stage, which I guess it was as the OP said there was three shots on the front target. It would seem to me that the three worst hits on the rear target would not be counted as ther dosen't apper to be a no shoot involved.

The issue is that the hits on the first target cannot be counted as "hits" on the second target. Even though our bullets travel through cardboard pretty easy, we consider the targets to be impenetrable...and any full bullet diameter hit cannot travel on and count for score on a target that is further downrange.

And, since (as stated, I believe) you can't tell which of the 5 hits on the latter target were the shoot-throughs from the first target...you cannot determine an accurate score on that latter target. (You don't get to pick which holes you like the best/worse...they have got to be the true "hits" that are on that target.)

Does that make sense?

Flexmoney, That makes sense enough to me. Like I said I'm new to the game and still trying to figure it out. This place has been a big help because where I'm at we only get to shoot two days a month. It would take forever to see some of the issues that come up if that was all the exposure I could get. I wish I could drive to other places to shoot but the next closest match is over 6 hours away in the summer with good road conditions. This time of year it would be an 8-10 hour trip each way. Thanks for helping clear this up.

[Flexmoney]

I know that feeling. When I first came here to the forum nobody else in my area was on here. This place became a pipeline of information specific to our shooting and our games.

Pretty cool.