Is this legal?

[818-DVC]

My parents live in MT. Is it legal for them to buy a 2011 frame and gift it to me in CA? I guess if they drive it to me, I can fill out an application to intra family transfer from them to me and send $19 to the CA DOJ??? I want to be 100% lawful. Is this correct?

Thank you for any info.

JL

[njl]

It's got to go through an FFL [in your state] if the firearm is being transfered between residents of different states.

[sfpmb]

My parents live in MT. Is it legal for them to buy a 2011 frame and gift it to me in CA? I guess if they drive it to me, I can fill out an application to intra family transfer from them to me and send $19 to the CA DOJ??? I want to be 100% lawful. Is this correct?

Thank you for any info.

JL

Call your local FFL, see what they say. I don't think that is the way it works but ask. The buck will stop with your FFL.

[twodownzero]

Interstate commerce of firearms without an FFL is illegal.

California probably requires an FFL for any transfer, as well. I believe even private party transfers are banned.

[818-DVC]

I believe intra family transfers are done by The state DOJ. After speaking with my FFL, he advised me to do.

DO NOT SHIP To FFL. It is illegal to ship a firearm or frame that is not on the CA Approved list.

A) visit parent/grandparent and return home with it. Fill out & send the intra family transfer application & a check for $19.

parent/grandparent visit you and bring it to you. You then fill out the same application.

Usually within 30-60 days you recieve a certificate with a cute little gold seal from the CA DOJ with your new gun registration in your name.

[G-ManBart]

Now the problem is that I think only Bar-Sto is making 2011s that are on the CA list. R,

[diehli]

Cal. Penal Code § 12078(c )(2)

Subdivision (d) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the

infrequent transfer of a handgun by gift, bequest, intestate

succession, or other means by one individual to another if both

individuals are members of the same immediate family and all of the

following conditions are met:

(A) The person to whom the firearm is transferred shall, within 30

days of taking possession of the firearm, forward by prepaid mail or

deliver in person to the Department of Justice, a report that

includes information concerning the individual taking possession of

the firearm, how title was obtained and from whom, and a description

of the firearm in question. The report forms that individuals

complete pursuant to this paragraph shall be provided to them by the

Department of Justice.

(B ) The person taking title to the firearm shall first obtain a

handgun safety certificate.

(C ) The person receiving the firearm is 18 years of age or older.

(3) As used in this subdivision, "immediate family member" means

any one of the following relationships:

(A) Parent and child.

(B ) Grandparent and grandchild.

Cal. Penal Code § 12072(d)

Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's

license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the

transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that

firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Cal. Penal Code § 12082

(a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a

firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in

accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)

of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the

firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain

possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm

to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the

firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision ©

of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to

the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,

the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the

waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the

firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the

firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or

transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would

constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the

dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller

or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith

deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of

police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or

city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner

provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or

person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay

a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee

may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a

firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable

fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and

12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set

forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a

dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any

additional fees.

(B ) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this

section to do all of the following:

(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the

firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned

the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,

and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the

requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and

12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.

(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a

pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon

the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of

paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a

personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or

other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold

or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is

returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or

transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have

sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a

record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry

provided by subdivision © of Section 11106.

(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer

shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the

firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the

person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other

information required by Section 12077.

(c ) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does

not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required

to process private party transfers of handguns.

(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

But, a straw purchase is a federal felony. 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6) & 924(a)(2).

http://www.nssf.org/newsroom/factsheets/straw-purchase.cfm

California Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms: (916) 263-4887.

Edited November 10, 2010 by diehli

[diehli]

Now the problem is that I think only Bar-Sto is making 2011s that are on the CA list. R,

Cal. Penal Code § 12132

This chapter [§§ 12125–12133] shall not apply to any of the following:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section

12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

(b ) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from

the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any

applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan,

or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable

exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072. . . .

Cal. Penal Code § 12125

(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who

manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state

for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends

any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county

jail not exceeding one year.

(b ) This section shall not apply to any of the following:

(1) The manufacture in this state, or importation into this state,

of any prototype pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being

concealed upon the person when the manufacture or importation is for

the sole purpose of allowing an independent laboratory certified by

the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12130 to conduct an

independent test to determine whether that pistol, revolver, or other

firearm capable of being concealed upon the person is prohibited by

this chapter, and, if not, allowing the department to add the firearm

to the roster of pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of

being concealed upon the person that may be sold in this state

pursuant to Section 12131.

(2) The importation or lending of a pistol, revolver, or other

firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by employees or

authorized agents of entities determining whether the weapon is

prohibited by this section. . . .

[818-DVC]

How could this even constitute as a straw deal? My father buys a frame and registers it. He then gives it to me for Christmas, kwaanza, my birthday. Whatever. He checks it in with his luggage and physically hands me the frame or firearm. I then fill out the form and send my $19 within 30 days. I send them my HSC, and anything else pertinent. Voilà.

No?

[Torogi]

check with an FFL, CA FFL. I thought one cannot move in frame only to CA. It needs to be a complete firearm, single shot. this applies too to individuals moving to CA state. even if you legally own the frame outside CA, you need to make it complete before you can transfer it here.

[diehli]

CA FFLs generally know precisely jack shit. If you're going to talk to anyone, call the DOJ Bureau of Firearms.

Regarding the straw purchase deal, you do whatever you're comfortable with.

Regarding frame—or any other non-AW firearm—transfers, they're exempt per § 12132, quoted above.

[818-DVC]

Deihli. Thank you for the info. I was reading up on the DOJ attorney general section codes when you posted them for eveyone to see.

[twodownzero]

But, a straw purchase is a federal felony. 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6) & 924(a)(2).

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

(2) Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a)(6), (d), (g), (h), (i), (j), or (o) of section 922 shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

I can't tell you what a straw purchase is for reasons I won't go into here, but I will say that you're wrong, and neither of the statutes you quote define it, either.

[twodownzero]

I believe intra family transfers are done by The state DOJ. After speaking with my FFL, he advised me to do.

States cannot regulate an interstate transaction. The power to regulate commerce between states was granted to Congress and thus states don't have it.

What you're describing might be legal between residents of your one state, but no state form can make a transaction that is illegal under federal law, all of a sudden legal.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 bans the interstate transfer of firearms by anyone except licensees.

An interstate "gift" requires an FFL transfer, just like winning a gun at an area match in another state requires the same.

Nothing I've posted here, in this post or others, should be construed as legal advice, and if you want a concrete and professional answer to your question, you should see the assistance of counsel. I would not rely on the opinion of any executive office (including the attorney general in your state), either.

The only sure way to assure that any transfer of a firearm to you from another person is legal is to funnel it through a licensee. That's why FFLs exist. The license grants the privilege of engaging in interstate commerce of firearms.

[diehli]

But, a straw purchase is a federal felony. 18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(6) & 924(a)(2).

(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

(2) Whoever knowingly violates subsection (a)(6), (d), (g), (h), (i), (j), or (o) of section 922 shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

I can't tell you what a straw purchase is for reasons I won't go into here, but I will say that you're wrong, and neither of the statutes you quote define it, either.

I'd highly doubt that your experience with those statutes is as extensive as mine is.

Knowingly making false statements in the acquisition of a firearms is prohibited by 922(a)(6); 924(a)(2) tells you it's a felony. ATF Form 4473, Question 11.a. asks: "Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"

The Instructions state: "Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer 'NO' to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer 'YES' to question 11.a."

If you get on an ATF agent's radar and he decides to characterize the events so as to fit them within a violation of that section (i.e. saying you gave your parents the money to make the purchase for you), you've got problems. And, yes, ATF agents do lie, both in and out of court.

Edited November 10, 2010 by diehli

[diehli]

§ 922(a)(5)

It shall be unlawful— . . . for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B ) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes

Edited November 10, 2010 by diehli

[carlosa]

818 dvc

Intra family transfer is totly legal and yes it does need to go through an ffl (10 day waiting period etc)

I advice you check out the forum at calguns.net and do a search there.

There's more people on calguns that have done this and can explain the process with better detail.

And no guys this is not a straw purchase.

Cheers,

Los.

[diehli]

The following is not legal advice.

18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(5) makes it clear that interstate transfers (including those between family members) must go through an FFL (as 2down0 said).

Cal. Penal Code § 12078(c )(2) says that transfers between immediate family members (defined as parent and child or grandparent and grandchild; spouses are allowed to transfer by another subsection) are legal without the firearm (frame, etc.) being on the CA Handgun Roster.

An FFL might have a way of pushing through the DROS under 12078(c )(2) (it may be an option, along with "sale", "private party transfer", etc.), but that seems unlikely since 12078(c )(2)(A) requires the person who obtains the handgun to provide CA DOJ with the necessary form (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf).

However, 922(a)(6) also penalizes "straw purchases", which are described by the acts in the Instructions to Question 11.a. in ATF Form 4473. "Intent" is what's important here; that's where prosecutors and defense attorneys make their money.

[Seth]

If Barsto makes a gun that's legal, order a frame from them?

[D.Hayden]

Now the problem is that I think only Bar-Sto is making 2011s that are on the CA list. R,

an SVI 45 5" is on the list. If yo buy from them, they send you a 45 widebody, you register it, send it back for some 'minor' tweaks, and it comes back as a 40 Limited, or 9/38 Open gun

[njl]

This is federal law.

§ 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

( shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

So...I'm no lawyer, but my understanding of the above is your out of state dad can't give you the frame (unless he died and it was left to you)...but if you want to get technical, he could loan it to you...if you feel like arguing about the meaning of "temporary". CA state law being what it is, probably has further restrictions.

[harperjmichael]

I think I'd just move to another State after reading all that legal bs! I'm so glad I live in Missouri.

[818-DVC]

Are you one of those people who has floods or tornadoes & rebuilds every other year?

I like 300 days of sunshine, Beautiful women everywhere of all nationalities, the ocean, the mountains, the traffic, poor legislation, dictatorship government, illegals, the earthquakes, floods, fires, etc. Never a dull moment in CA! when's the last time you shot 3 matches in 1 day??? The tri- fecta and the triple crown? We're not as gun friendly as our neighbors, but it's going to be 72 and sunny today. Great day to head to Piru and work on accelerator or pendulum!

[norbs007]

You got the most simple correct answer from carlosa, have your father bring it in and both of you do the transfer through an FFL. It has been done many many times, I personally know somebody who's dad contacted the DOJ first and was told of the process. You're not getting away from the 10-day wait

[818-DVC]

My FFL who is ex LE, whom I got into SCSA, explained to me 3 times that Intra famialial transfers are done exactly as Carlosa described.

How do you think there are so many new CA builds? Every month I see 20 new CA guns built by the same 3 smiths.