Weak Stroking? Is there such a thing?

[robot]

Is there such a thing as "weak stroking" a double action trigger for the S&W 625 revolver? I realize that if I stroke the trigger fast and hard, the hammer seems like it's slamming on the firing pin a lot harder, and if I try to go slower or lighter, the hammer doesn't move with that much force. Is that true? or just a figment of my imagination?

also, if there's such a thing, then would that affect how well it ignites a primer? I suspect my light strikes from the previous match is from "weak stroking". I remember seating all my primers all the way with a lot of gusto and most of the federal primers seat below flush. I have a 7lb trigger on the 625JM.

Thanks in advance.

[Matt Griffin]

No such thing, unless you're doing it in such a way that the hammer drags on the sear a bit, but you would have to be pulling the trigger incredibly slowly to possibly have that happen. So no. The trigger has a tongue of metal that rides against the DA sear, when it gets to a certain point it slips off and the hammer falls, no matter how fast you pull the trigger the hammer is going to fall from the exact same point every time. It doesn't have enough mass to carry past that point by inertia, I would recommend getting a digital caliper and depth-checking your ammo. You can overseat as well as underseat.

H.

[Carmoney]

Nope, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you pull the trigger, the hammer falls off and travels down at the same speed. The only time a slow trigger pull can contribute to misfiring is when there is a timing problem and a slow pull doesn't allow the chamber to carry up fully, creating an off-center hit on the primer. But I doubt that is what is happening here--timing problems on newer 625s are fairly unusual.

If you're having misfires, and are only using good ammo with well-seated Federal primers, the mainspring tension is probably insufficient. The only other thing that might help is replacement of the "CA drop test" firing pin found in most of the 625JMs with an older .495" stock TI pin, or perhaps the Apex aftermarket pin.

[pskys2]

Problems such as junk in the firing pin tunnel or a bad firing pin spring (had mine lock up due to a collapsed spring) can cause wierd issues.

Despite a 7# Action Job you could still have too light of a mainspring. Check that the strain screw is seated fully and weigh the hammer drop, it should be over 40 oz. for Federal Primers. You can go lighter but then it reduces your margins of error.

[JThompson]

Just to easy to take...

JT

[GMM50]

Problems such as junk in the firing pin tunnel or a bad firing pin spring (had mine lock up due to a collapsed spring) can cause wierd issues.

Despite a 7# Action Job you could still have too light of a mainspring. Check that the strain screw is seated fully and weigh the hammer drop, it should be over 40 oz. for Federal Primers. You can go lighter but then it reduces your margins of error.

Can you explain what you mean by "Weigh the hammer drop"?

Thanks

George

[robot]

Thanks guys for this info. This really helps. The hammer looks like it drops at a different speeds but I think that's just me since i'm pulling the trigger.

The rounds that were misfiring had a very light indent in the primer, which basically mean that the firing ping didn't strike the primer hard enough OR primer was not seated in well. correct?

I have the C&S Extended firing pin on the gun but also have the Apex as a backup. I'll try switching it to the Apex for my next match.

how do you weigh a hammer drop?

[Matt Griffin]

Thanks guys for this info. This really helps. The hammer looks like it drops at a different speeds but I think that's just me since i'm pulling the trigger.

The rounds that were misfiring had a very light indent in the primer, which basically mean that the firing ping didn't strike the primer hard enough OR primer was not seated in well. correct?

I have the C&S Extended firing pin on the gun but also have the Apex as a backup. I'll try switching it to the Apex for my next match.

how do you weigh a hammer drop?

First, even if there was a way to pull the trigger so that it lost a bit of oomph, I'm positive you couldn't do it so that the human eye could discern the difference. Sorry I couldn't find a way to write that sounding less assholish, I promise you it isn't intended that way. The general gist is that if you think you're seeing the hammer fall at different speeds, it's almost certainly the influence of stress (slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Our brains are liars.)

As for the primer indent, that's also a mistake I made early on. What actually happens when you fire a cartridge is the pin hits the primer, and the primer during its explosion launches out of the primer pocket. Fire some primer-only cases in a revolver and you'll bind it up. The powder going off then pushes the case back down around the primer, reseating it, and also causes a much deeper dent while doing so. The upshot is that every non-firing strike will be much less deep than a firing strike, and it has almost nothing to do with the pin strike. The subsequent 17,000psi+ push against the pin is what causes the normal dent depth.

H.

[pskys2]

Problems such as junk in the firing pin tunnel or a bad firing pin spring (had mine lock up due to a collapsed spring) can cause wierd issues.

Despite a 7# Action Job you could still have too light of a mainspring. Check that the strain screw is seated fully and weigh the hammer drop, it should be over 40 oz. for Federal Primers. You can go lighter but then it reduces your margins of error.

Can you explain what you mean by "Weigh the hammer drop"?

Thanks

George

Run a search, but here is the short version:

Using a trigger pull gauge, hook it in front of the hammer at full cock.

Then measure the weight of the hammer as you hold it about half way thru the arc.

[cas]

I dunno... I've dealt with a couple guns that would give light hits when fired with a slow staged double action and single action, but not with a strong pull through. A little more tension on the main spring was called for.

[GMM50]

Another issue that easy to get your arms around it dirt in the cylinder.

If there is crud (technical term) in the cylinder and the cartridge is not fully seated then some energy from the hammer goes into moving the cartridge.

Brush out the cylinders and see if light hits are less.

gm

Edited October 27, 2010 by GMM50

[robot]

@gmm50 I clean my gun after ever use and I'm sure the the cylinders are clean, unless some crud got into the cylinder during the match. That could be possible, but I'm more inclined to think that it has to do with the C&S Firing Pin and mainspring tension. I've lightened the mainspring to 7lbs which is suggested to light off the Federal primer, I've heard that you can light up the primer even with 5.5lb spring so I'm not that extreme.

@Houngan Agreed. I'm sure it's just my brain telling me it is.

[DWFAN]

Did you bend the spring, or just loosen the mainspring tension screw ?

[robot]

Did you bend the spring, or just loosen the mainspring tension screw ?

I put in the Miculek spring kit's mainspring which is bent at the top, changed the rebound slide spring, and loosened the tension screw to 7lbs.

[Carmoney]

Ah-ha!

Another screw-loosener!

The strain screw is intended to be fully tightened and torqued. It is not an adjustment screw. Left loosened, it is free to loosen up further and begin causing those intermittent misfires.

[robot]

hahah "caught red handed"

until I can get my revolver to a competent gunsmith I'll have to do it on my own. I know I should file down the length of the strain screw so that it will be tightened down and stay down at 7lbs but I'm not confident enough to do it. I checked right after the match and the trigger pull was still around 7lbs so i'm not sure if the screw is loosening or not. I've just marked the position of the screw with a sharpie. I want to see if the screw is indeed "running" out of alignment.

[pskys2]

@gmm50 I clean my gun after ever use and I'm sure the the cylinders are clean, unless some crud got into the cylinder during the match. That could be possible, but I'm more inclined to think that it has to do with the C&S Firing Pin and mainspring tension. I've lightened the mainspring to 7lbs which is suggested to light off the Federal primer, I've heard that you can light up the primer even with 5.5lb spring so I'm not that extreme.

@Houngan Agreed. I'm sure it's just my brain telling me it is.

Your problem is definitely too light of a Mainspring. You can't adjust the overall pull weight by just loosening/bending the Mainspring. You have to balance the Return Spring and the Mainspring. Just doing one won't solve anything.

Adjust the Mainspring to a 40+ oz. Hammer Fall, then put in a light return spring. I like to use the Return Spring Kits from Brownells as they let me play with it without cutting a bunch of factory springs, but you can start trimming coils off of the factory if needed.

The goal is to have the Trigger return smoothly with no hitches at your current Hammer drop weight.

Once done you can then play with different spring return weights until you are comfortable with your Action.

Remember each Revo is different and there is no magical Action Weight.

I've tried them as low as 4 1/2#, and didn't like it at all. I've since settled on 6 1/2#, with a strong Trigger Return.

I try to have several spare Strain Screws cut to give different Hammer Drop Weights, then settle on the one that works the best and keep some heavier ones in my bag. Just in case I start having trouble.

P.S. I've tried both Randy Lee and Mike Carmoney Action Jobs and unless your a GM, or have the means to put a lot of rounds thru a gun to get used to it I'd not go with the ultra light action from Randy. Mike's Actions are heavier, 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 I believe but super smooth. Randy can do a similar Action Job and he does sell good stuff, but last I heard he was swamped.

[D.carden]

I've tried them as low as 4 1/2#, and didn't like it at all. I've since settled on 6 1/2#, with a strong Trigger Return.

+1 on that..............Anything under 7# for me feels like a car with a flat tire, sluggish........

I tend to short stroke with anything less......

Pulled the 625 out for some practice last week (hadn't shot it in about a year). The trigger felt like a ton of bricks and slow. After about 1000rnds (2 days) and some dry fire it was buisness as usual. Hit a 5.26sec el prez at the end practice last Friday.........Your hand/finger strength will be your best asset.....

If it will light off, light or heavy trigger, practice with what you got set up and dont change anything after that..........!!!

And as Mike said....."lock down the strain screw"....!!!!!

Edited October 28, 2010 by D.carden

[robot]

P.S. I've tried both Randy Lee and Mike Carmoney Action Jobs and unless your a GM, or have the means to put a lot of rounds thru a gun to get used to it I'd not go with the ultra light action from Randy. Mike's Actions are heavier, 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 I believe but super smooth. Randy can do a similar Action Job and he does sell good stuff, but last I heard he was swamped.

I have reached out to Mike, he's busy till November. Once he's free-er, I hope I can send it to him to get it all done right.

and I'm definitely no GM. I'm just a lowly C class shooter that wanna-be GM. hehe

[lugnut]

FWIW I had my gun set to just over 7lbs. Even with well seated Federals I was getting a light strike every 100 or so rounds. I adjusted it now and have a stronger mainspring but the pull is around 9lbs now... bummer.