Singlestack Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Heres the scoop. I just started shooting open and I thought I had to have a Tec loader so I bought one and mounted it to my 1187 today. First opinion: What a piece of crap! What do I need to modify to make this flimsy thing work? I can get 3 rounds out of it most of the time, never 4, and sometimes none! The pusher peels out of the tube WAY too easy. Do I need to put some kind of dowl in the pusher thingy? Do I need to take the DMW gate off? I really do not want to do that! help..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 I saw a shooter not long ago that had cut ~3/4 slots lenght wise in PCV pipe that fit over the outside of his tubes. The effect was a much stiffer tube. He had the outside PVC tube about 1.5" shorter on each end. I saw him use it for 4 reloads that went very smooth. Any thought on this type of setup? How do you hold the shotgun while using a Tec Loader? Anybody tried out the DMW bracket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi John, Don't give up, they do work, you probably just haven't got the hang of it yet. If you have looked at someone elses setup on a Remy, and the bracket is installed the same then that is probably not the issue. Do you have an EasyLoader installed on your 11-87, if not that would be the problem. Here are excerpts from a previous thread on the Tec Loaders. I have distilled them down to the ones that will add to your knowledge on these suckers. I have the same setup on my 11-87, and find this system works very well once you come to terms with it's little idiosyncracies. ----------------------------------------------- I saw a neat trick with the speed loaders. Put a 7/16" wooden dowel rod in the handle and out through the hole in the back of the tube. It keeps the handle from popping out the slot. Looks dumb as hell but it worked for these guys. Chris Grube ----------------------------------------------- Delrin rod works even better. That's what I use in mine. Bill Hearne ----------------------------------------------- I think that it is important to watch most of the process of the shotgun speedload. I don't turn the shotgun 180 degrees - maybe 140-160 degrees. I leave my weak hand in roughly the same position on the foreend. I then bring the shotgun to the area of my lower rib cage with the barrel pointed slightly downward. My weak arm folds up against my chest. IMHO the most important thing is to get the right engagement/angle between speedloader and bracket. Really look at what you are doing when the loader contacts the bracket. Then be aggressive with the load. Don't hedge it. Once the load has started (hopefully successfully), I turn my attention back towards the targets. I probably have the 2d round in the gun when I start to look at the next target. Kelly Neal ------------------------------------------------ One aspect of these loarders is in the gun itself. When I first installed my loader and tried it the first shell would stop half way in the rest would end up on the floor. You need to break the sharp edges on the reciever at the mag tube entry and polishing that area. My 1100 had really sharp edges that would catch the plastic on the shells. After doing that I've never had a problem with a reload. TMC (Note: I haven't had to do this, but it is a good idea so I included it here) ------------------------------------------------ I am a long time proponent of the "Flip-N-Burn" method for reloading with "Speed Loaders". Kelly is absolutely right about watching the engagement into place, then ramming it home. After flipping, I do the dirty high and tight, just like Kelly says, it really is the ticket here. The biggest problems I have seen folks create for themselves are related to improper alignment before the stroke, or pussyfooting the stroke. The dowels are a definite edge in power stroking the plunger (I am a wood dowel fan myself). Another good thing is powdered graphite in the tube, and on the plunger. Oh yeah, keep 'em clean too, grit don't help. Geoffrey Linder ------------------------------------------------ More on TecLoader usage. I went down to the shootin' room and checked out what I do when I index the loader. I found that I do it the same standing, or moving. I also realized that my technique is based on putting the shotgun feed gate into position for where the loader wants to be when I pull it out and swing it forward. I am sure this will be a little different for each persons setup, and body english. After flipping, the stock comb is resting just under my ribcage, and above my holstered pistol. There is an upward tilt on the barrel (maybe 10 degrees), and the loading gate is rotated to about 1 o'clock to align with the incoming stick. This let's me look forward more than downward as I am loading and moving. The Flip part of the Flip-N-Burn also brings the shotgun around a bit so that it is angled slightly left of forward to put the shotgun into alignment with the path I am bringing the loader forward on, instead of twisting the loader around to square it up (pretty much an analog of how I re-load for pistol by aligning the magwell for the upcoming mag). The stroke then occurs as more of a forward motion as opposed to downward. When the deed is done, I flip back to my grip on the forend as I am raising to shooting position (my Optima dot is mounted farther out the barrel than normal to allow me to do the flip right where I grip. This forward grip position also facilitates letting the shotgun assume the up angle I mentioned earlier). A batting glove on the weak hand is suggested here to prevent barrel burns when ya flip the sucker Geoffrey Linder ------------------------------------------------ It also really helps to make sure the tongue on the tube actually depresses the loading gate/easyloader ramp as the tangs engage the bracket. If this is correctly done prior to stroking the plunger it will go a long way towards making it a smooth process. Remember, don't pussyfoot the plunger after the stick is aligned, and the loading gate is depressed, stroke it all the way through and just let the parts of the loader separate and fly away. I have never seen anyone have to resort to any tube strengthening to make these work. I have been using them sucessfully for over ten years, and know a lot of shooters who use them sucessfully with a lot of slightly different techniques. If all of the above doesn't help you get these things under control, let me know, and I will take a couple of photos showing the aligment and hold that works for me and send them to ya' Let me know how it goes, Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Just a couple of things I did. First, on new loaders I sanded down the little nubs in the ends slightly to give them the worn in effect. I always put a light coat of silicon inside. Finally the most important, don't let them sit in the sunlight because they get soft and the handles will pull right out easier. See Bill H. I can be nice and give you some secrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Wasn't there any article awhile back in Front Sight that said not to use dowels with the Tec Loaders? I could have sworn that it said that using dowels increased the chance of igniting the rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 I am not sure where all of the hoopla about the (so called) safety issues regarding the Tec Loaders comes from, but IMO it is starting to approach "urban legend" status. There are somewhat valid issues concerning a "primer relief cut" in the plunger to prevent grit wiping of primers, or high primers contacting the plunger directly. IMHO, high primers are an equipment prep issue and are also dangerous in places other than Tec Loaders. Grit is again an equipment prep/maintenance issue and is not a problem isolated to the Tec Loader. I have been using the Tec Loaders for about twelve years now. I started using them without dowels, or the primer relief cut. Everyone I know well uses the dowels. I only recently (two years ago) put the primer relief cut in my plungers because I saw the requirement appear in various match rules. I have never seen a safety problem (detonation) personally, nor do I know anyone who has actually seen anything happen directly themselves. I am sure that someone has directly witnessed the statistically insignificant instances where this has happened (kinda like the mythical round that detonates when ejected onto the ground), but I have no actual direct evidence to share here. The dowel force multiplication issue is where I strongly disagree. If someone were stiffening the tubes so the plungers wouldn't come through the slot under pressure, then a substantial increase of force could be applied. Dowel, or no dowel the amount of force applied before the plunger pops out will not be greatly increased because the governing factor here is the flexibility of the tube. The sticks works best when a sharp force is initially applied followed by a firm follow through for the rest of the stroke. Any misalignment of the force applied with the tube at this point is why the plungers pop out most often. The dowels just prevent the misalignment of the force applied from twisting the plunger up, and out of the slot. In a successful loading push, the force is the same to move the shells into the gun, whether a dowel is used or not. The dowel just decreases the chance of popping the plunger instead of loading the shotgun. This is kinda like tube loading rifles, don't use pointy projectiles, make sure primers are not high, and keep things grit free. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkgsmith Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 George, no myth on the detonating round. I was on a police range and witnessed a factory 124 gr. 9mm round go off when dropped on the pavement. I was also present at a USPSA match when a competitor had his magazine go off in his hand, while not in the gun. The magazine had dropped and had gotten grit in it and it jumbled the rounds. When he shook it the rounds snapped upward and somehow struck a primer and the round went off. I say better safe then sorry. Put a relief cut in your dowels and play it safe. Spend enough time on the range and nothing is impossible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 no myth on the detonating round Well, strike one for the "dropped on the ground" detonation challenge. Has anyone out there actually witnessed one of the Tec Loader detonations? As I understand it, the ones that have happened have been due entirely to grit wiping the primers, or high primers. or both (I have no direct data on this, only hearsay), hence the requirement for the "primer relief cut" on the plungers at some matches. After I found out what the mod was, I did it to all my speed loaders (and the ones that belong to a good friend) because the possibility, however remote, "seems" to have been demonstrated on this issue. The dowel force amplification worries are another matter entirely. As long as a primer relief cut is present on the plunger and cleanliness is preserved on, and around the rounds, the amount of force applied is immaterial. The same (remote) possibility for grit induced detonation exists for the hand loading of shells into any type of tubular magazines if you allow foreign matter to get involved in the loading process. This is not a "remote possibility" particular to Tec Loader sticks. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Neill Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 At a 3-gun match about three years ago I saw the aftermath of a shotgun detonation. Fortunately, the shooter was not seriously hurt - but he was injured slightly. He was on another squad, so I did not witness the detonation, but did talk to him later. I had recommended to the Tec Loader people that they put in the slot to avoid the pusher bearing against the primer of the round as it made the turn into the mag tube. I modified mine long before that. Still, as a result of that detonation, the local clubs do not allow speed loaders for shotguns. Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 Part of the tech loader problem was the NASA employees that were screwing the dowel rods in to the loader and left the screw sticking out the front where it could hit the primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 The way I install the dowels is to drill the plunger out to the diameter of the dowel, then epoxy it in place flush with the plunger face. After the epoxy cures a little work with a dremel to match and smooth everything up. No offensive protrusions this way. IMHO, outright banning of Tec Loaders is just a knee jerk response to a situation that has very little to do with the Tec Loader specifically, and almost everything to do with poor ammo handling & preparation practices in general. In my book, this is way less of a safety problem than what goes on at almost every pistol match when folks clear out with flamboyant routines at the end of stages (probably at the same facilities that disallow Tec Loaders too), yet I don't see cranking live rounds out of pistols with extended ejectors being banned. This same criteria applied to the (distinct) possibility of grit in a tubular magazine would make lever action rifles inherently unsafe, but I don't see the Cowboy shooters worrying about this too much. Somehow, this just seems like a plot to strip open class shooters of all of the gadetry that lets their sorry a$$'s think they can actually shoot Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I did see a round detonate when a shooter tossed it back into his ammo can. It hit the rim of anothere cartridge in the can. He still has the blown case with the half moon mark of the stirke on the rim. Now on to speed feed detonatioin. We had one at our club a long time ago. It messed up the shooters forearm pretty badly, and of course they were promptly baned. The primer of the shell looked just fine no dings or deep gouges. I was thinking maybe a static electricity initiated primer ignition. After all we have a plastic shell bveing forced rapidly down a pollyethylene tube hitting a conductive reciever.....just like a static generator. Maybe maybr not, just an idea, but in the long run I do agree with George. This is so rare, just like a ejector detonation, that perhapse it is all just one of those out side chances we must accept as part of playing with dangerous devices...holster acsessories...blasters, or any other cute name we have for firearms. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted July 21, 2003 Share Posted July 21, 2003 I was at the range at Rio Salado when one blew up but Iwas in the next bay. I don't really have a diagnosis for what happened (grit on primer?) but it blew the hell out of the shotgun. Did not hurt the shooter execpt for some small shrapnel. I don't believe that loader had the primer cut. As for dowels, I don't see how a dowel can increase the posiibility of ignition. It's not like the dowel ever hits the shells. I f%^&ing hate the things but they're necessary for open class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Since we're on the subject, can someone post some pictures of a plunger with the primer relief cut? I have a couple of older tec loaders that I haven't played with for a few years. I can imagine what needs to be done, but a little visual assistance couldn't hurt. You know, Kurtm just might be onto something with the static electricity idea. It does sound like a feasable cause for problems. I wonder if the next generation of Tec loaders might have a thin copper strip running down the inside and out the front where they could ground out on the receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Ya' know, the static thing is just possible enough to be probable (philosophically, anything not absolutely impossible is quite probable in the long run). I (and most of the shooters in my peer group) slop powdered graphite all over inside the loader tubes to enhance function. I have also seen a lot of other shooters using silicone spray/wipes to treat the tubes & plungers. Given the possibility of the static problem, it is (ironically) probable that each of these methods of "sliprication enhancement" damps static enough that we are (unintentionally) making these things safer in our single minded quest for better functioning ;-) I will try to take some photos later this evening and post em' Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 Here are some images showing proper tube/bracket alignment Photo 1 = Not Aligned (yet). Not ready to stroke. No lug engagement, loader ramp not depressed. Photo 2 = Aligned and ready to stroke. Lugs engaged, loader ramp fully depressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 22, 2003 Share Posted July 22, 2003 I offer an image of the "Primer Relief Cut" modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 Nice pics George! Thanks for your efforts and all the info. Bevin... Got something to show us??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 If anybody is interested, the article I was referring to was on the September/October 2001 issue of Front Sight, page 11. I think the Tec-loader went through a couple of name/owner changes. The article quotes Michael Cohn of "Armstec" as the source of the information. I don't know if this guy is just practicing CYA... but There are three problems that the article quotes as being a result of using dowels. 1&2) "When the hole is plugged with a dowel, two problems arise: 1. debris can build up directly under the primer (loose pellets in particular), and 2. the dowel can work its way forward, until it bears on the primer directly. Then, if a round hangs up on the way into the magazine, the force applied to the primer can be enought to fire the round." 3) "It's not just debris, the dowel sets up angles and speeds that can make it possible to set off a round." This guy even goes as far as saying "any match where they are using our speed loaders with a dowel, we recommend they be disqualified for safety reasons." WTF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamGE Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 George The theory is that the top corner of the nose, (of an uncut nose) wipes across the primer when the shell makes the turn from the Tec loader to the mag tube in the receiver. If the shell gets stuck while loading or the mag tube is full right at that point, you could have enough momentom and force to dent the primer. In theory this could also happen when the push handle pops out of the slot in the Tec tube. The cut in the nose will eliminate the corner wipe condition. This cut in the nose is a design change made by Armstec and is on every new Tec loader handle. Several gun clubs I attend have changed their rules on Tec loaders and have allowed us to use them again in matches because of the design change. GordonB, I feel the artical you quoted in Front Sight was writen as a "Product Liabilaty Disclaimer" for Armstec and should have never been written and published in Front Sight. It is not the job or responsability of Front Sight to advertise the legal liability issues of a companys product, especialy from a company that aperantly doesn't want to support our sport. I am sure that Armstec has been severly hurt by the problems they have had with the Tec loader and I think they don't want anything to do with fast speed loading and modifications to their product. This sport is full of people who love to tinker with their equipment and safety always needs to be keeped in mind, but some of the excuses that Armstec has come up with are only there to protect their a$$ in a liability suite. Because of that artical and the may it was written, (with referance to me and my products) I cannot and will not associate any of my products to the Armstec company or the product that they make. With that said, I will get around to answering Singlestack's question. Singlestack, I have made for my personal use, a loading ramp and gate that works very well with the Tec loaders. I can not sell this item in the same form because of the reasons above, and the fact that Armstec owns a patent on the bracket that fits on the receiver. Those two "ears" that stick up from the receiver and meet up with the tabs on the Tec tube are the patent. I will be offering a simular product called a "Shellwell" designed to enhance hand loading shells into the receive, and will not have any "ears" on it to accept the Tec loader tube. It will be marketed as a "hand loading device only". This product will be shaped like a magwell on the pistol, and works very well in the hand loading of shells. What the customer does with this product after they buy it, is of coarse out of my control, and if they decide to modify it in any way, they have the choice. I will be making the Shellwell for the Benelli M1 S90, Remingtom 1100/11-87, and Wincester SX2 for starters. The Benelli is in primary production machining now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 23, 2003 Share Posted July 23, 2003 I have made for my personal use, a loading ramp and gate that works very well with the Tec loaders. I can not sell this item in the same form because of the reasons above, and the fact that Armstec owns a patent on the bracket that fits on the receiver. Those two "ears" that stick up from the receiver and meet up with the tabs on the Tec tube are the patent. Hi Beven, I saw one of the brackets you describe on Matt Burkett's Benelli at the MGM 3 Gun match. It is an awesome little piece of hardware, my compliments to the chef. It gave me a big time case of the "gotta have it's" as soon as I saw it. Oh well, I guess I will have to get by with the plastic bracket from Armstec. The one modification I have done to the stock Tec Loader bracket is to take down all the sharp edges so I don't slice the knuckles on my thumb open whenever I hand load shells with the bracket in place. The thing I really liked about the bracket I saw on Matt's shotgun was how hand friendly it looked compared the the Armstec bracket. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 23, 2003 Author Share Posted July 23, 2003 Dang it! Another wizz bang! And it even has a cool name. Shellwell Lets see.... I need it because it is safer for my thumb? Or should I tell her that is so much better/faster than what I have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted July 24, 2003 Share Posted July 24, 2003 The shell well is fast that is true. What is most awesome is the consistency that you can hit the loads. It is the single best advance on shotgun speed reloads for a semi ever. Bevin got it right and it rocks. Good luck, Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 24, 2003 Author Share Posted July 24, 2003 Thanks Matt! Now all I have to do is tell her what Matt Burkett said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted August 12, 2003 Author Share Posted August 12, 2003 OK! After a little work with my trusty dremel and some dowels I have my Tec Loaders working like a charm! You guys are great and thanks a bunch. Look out Area 6 3-gun Championship... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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