Can a .223 Hang With The .308s?

[Graham Smith]

I took my AR15 chambered in .223 to a police sniper course a few weeks ago and found that it did better than I expected to shooting my own 69gr SMKs against bolt action .308s shooting Federal Gold Medal match ammo. Since then I have been pondering the question of just how well might I do with a rifle actually intended for that kind of shooting.

The question is this, in a head to head .223 vs .308 paper punching contest using virtually identical rifles from 100 to 700 yds, just how much of a disadvantage is there to shooting .223? Is it just a matter of dealing with windage or is there more to it than that?

I'm rather curious to see if just how far I can push the .223 but don't care to spend $1000 to find out it's a complete waste of time.

Caveats:

This is not about hunting or LE or combat sniping. This is about hitting paper and steel at distance.

This is .223 vs .308 hand loads only - no other calibers.

Standard Remington 700 1:9 .223 and 1:12 .308 barrels.

[Religious Shooter]

If you can have sighters (1-3 shots to get on paper) the .223 will hold it's own.

No sighters... the .223 will be at a significant disadvantage.

[fastshooter03]

Were you shooting the 308 as well?

If the targets are big enough it would be a toss up.

With some of the High BC 223 bullets like the 75 A-Max the trajectory can be quite good but would require a barrel with at least a 1x8 twist to take advantage.

The 308 you can push out some of the high BC 155s pretty fast but the recoil will be higher without a brake or can.

In windy conditions I think the 308 has an advantage at the further distances(5-700) but with more recoil and cost.

Nick

[Joe4d]

Its all about the wind, .223 and 308 bullets of similar bc's will travel at similar trajectories. Neither will be any better or worse in verticle acuracy. Caliber wont make much difference. What will get you is bullet weight. The heavier a bullet the less it will be affected by wind. Wind is pretty hard to calculate exact and wont be consistent.

[mdschappell]

Its all about the wind, .223 and 308 bullets of similar bc's will travel at similar trajectories. Neither will be any better or worse in verticle acuracy. Caliber wont make much difference. What will get you is bullet weight. The heavier a bullet the less it will be affected by wind. Wind is pretty hard to calculate exact and wont be consistent.

+1... Wind will move the lighter bullets more than the heavier .308. If wind wasn't a variable, the .223 would be good out to 700 yds.

[M ammo]

Well the firm and only true answer is

Yes and no,,

I have shot both 223 and 308 in 3 gun. Both of my guns have shot great groups at one time or another,

Paper punching and steel hitting,, 223 will not hold accuracy as well out to 700 yards. I have gotten good groups out to 600. And can’t speak out to 700,,, but a buddy of mine who is a long range Yoda, tells me he has got 223 to fly out to 800 but it is just falling out of the air, and wind, mist, high humidity,, are all hurting you.

308 holds,,, for obvious reasons (weight)

In shooting 308 it is a drill out to 300 it holds in the wind,, and out to 600 the holds in my scope work OK.

Accuracy using Match grade bullets will give you match results,, if you are shooting SMK’s you know this.

For the 308 I shoot 155 Nosler Competitions

In the 223 I shoot any cheap 55 GR for tgts out to 200to save $$ and 69 SMK’s or Nosler Competitions.

308 and 223 in an AR platform is Different. The weight of the gun, recoil, Magazine capacity. The list goes on.

223 is faster, 308 a bit slower for speed shooting,, offhand shooting with the heavier gun sucked. 20 round mags, when you’re used to 30 rnds.

It comes down to, what job you need to do. I tried 308 for 3 Gun this last year,, I’m glad I did it,, it was different,, but next year For 3 gun .223 it will do the job, I need it to do for 3 gun,,, better than 308 all things considered.

[BrianATL]

To get the 223 to match the 308 out to 600 yards you need a 1 in 8 twist with a long throat 223 so you can shoot the 80 grain 223's. Then the 223 can match up with the 308 with the 175's.

For some reason 1 in 8 223 choices are limited. Three most popular choices would be the Tikka bolt guns, AR's of course, and rebarreling yourself a cheap Savage/Stevens action.

Edited October 15, 2010 by BrianATL

[rrflyer]

From what little I know .223 in an AR15 is THE choice for the NRA Highpower guys. They choose it over the M1A in .308, even out 1,000 yards.

The problem with the ar15 is you cant shoot the 80 and 90 gn .223 bullets and still feed from the mag.

According to my handy dandy Iphone ballistics calculater

223 with a 75gn AMAX going around 2750 (guesstimated velocity)

Yards Drop(Inches) Drift(Inches per 10MPH Wind

300 12.8 7.0

500 53.4 61.7

1,000 365.8 104.9

A .308 with 175SMK out of my 20" Rem 700 doing 2625

Yards Drop Drift

300 14.9 6.7

500 60.2 20.0

1,000 389.7 96.4

Edited October 15, 2010 by rrflyer

[M ammo]

I have the 1-9 and the 69's do the job,,, for what I shoot,,

if and when I shoot the barrle out,, I'll think about changing it up,,

[Tom Freeman]

Limited to a 9 twist in 223, the 308 is better unless you are very good at wind calls.

[BrianATL]

From what little I know .223 in an AR15 is THE choice for the NRA Highpower guys. They choose it over the M1A in .308, even out 1,000 yards.

The problem with the ar15 is you cant shoot the 80 and 90 gn .223 bullets and still feed from the mag.

According to my handy dandy Iphone ballistics calculater

223 with a 75gn AMAX going around 2750 (guesstimated velocity)

Yards Drop(Inches) Drift(Inches per 10MPH Wind

300 12.8 7.0

500 53.4 61.7

1,000 365.8 104.9

A .308 with 175SMK out of my 20" Rem 700 doing 2625

Yards Drop Drift

300 14.9 6.7

500 60.2 20.0

1,000 389.7 96.4

You might want to check that 223 500 yard drift number (about 24 inches). And the 75 Amax will not mag feed just like the 80's

[rrflyer]

I'll have to double check, its all I had in my KAC software.

I shot the 75amax but single fed them in a 1/7 twist WOA barrel and it was easy hits at 550-600 on a 40% USPSA Target. But the 69SMK's were easy hits at that distance as well and mag length.

I dont have an ar15 or .223 anymore but the 77gn SMK's can be loaded mag length if I remember correctly.

Edited October 15, 2010 by rrflyer

[Graham Smith]

Before taking my AR15 (1:8 twist) to this course (which was originally slated to be a civilian only course - long story posted elsewhere), I worked up a load of 69gr SMK doing about 2900fps. The ballistic curve for this load looked fairly reasonable and I compared it to a .308 and while the .308 was clearly the "winner" in the fight against gravity, the .223 didn't do that bad. When I got there, I found that 6 of the 9 students were either police or military contractors and most of them had Federal Gold 180gr SMK factory loads. I looked at the ballistics for them and they were better than the numbers I had looked at before, but once again, it wasn't that much better till you started to get out past 700yds (if I recall correctly).

Once we actually started shooting, my Franken-AR turned out to be a problem because we shot prone a lot and I could not get a good cheek weld with a 4-12x scope at 2.5" above bore. Never the less, I was consistently surprised at how well I could do and just how close on the mark I was with the turret adjustments I had calculated. Only once was I really off and that was because I forgot for a moment I had a 1/2 MOA scope and over-dialed it.

This experience has me really interested in the whole idea of seeing just what I can get out of a "factory" bolt action rifle and my own loads. The only really big question is whether to stick with .223 or go for the gusto and switch to .308. While I know that 1:9 is a bit of a limit, I need to use ammo that will fit in the box magazine, so the 80gr VLD loads are out of the question, but 69's work fine with a 1:9 and I've seen enough data to convince me that 75gr AMAX will work.

The only drawback to the .308 is cost - pure simple I can afford to put a whole lot more .223 downrange than .308, so in the long run, the .223 should make me a better shooter than the .308 (practice makes perfect). But if I'm just opening myself up to a lot of trouble at long range, then the whole point of the exercise changes from improving my shooting to fighting to keep the lighter bullets on paper.

P.S. I know that there are other calibers that change the discussion, but I want to stay with the two "military" calibers.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Graham Smith

[M ammo]

Before taking my AR15 (1:8 twist) to this course (which was originally slated to be a civilian only course - long story posted elsewhere), I worked up a load of 69gr SMK doing about 2900fps. The ballistic curve for this load looked fairly reasonable and I compared it to a .308 and while the .308 was clearly the "winner" in the fight against gravity, the .223 didn't do that bad. When I got there, I found that 6 of the 9 students were either police or military contractors and most of them had Federal Gold 180gr SMK factory loads. I looked at the ballistics for them and they were better than the numbers I had looked at before, but once again, it wasn't that much better till you started to get out past 700yds (if I recall correctly).

Once we actually started shooting, my Franken-AR turned out to be a problem because we shot prone a lot and I could not get a good cheek weld with a 4-12x scope at 2.5" above bore. Never the less, I was consistently surprised at how well I could do and just how close on the mark I was with the turret adjustments I had calculated. Only once was I really off and that was because I forgot for a moment I had a 1/2 MOA scope and over-dialed it.

This experience has me really interested in the whole idea of seeing just what I can get out of a "factory" bolt action rifle and my own loads. The only really big question is whether to stick with .223 or go for the gusto and switch to .308. While I know that 1:9 is a bit of a limit, I need to use ammo that will fit in the box magazine, so the 80gr VLD loads are out of the question, but 69's work fine with a 1:9 and I've seen enough data to convince me that 75gr AMAX will work.

The only drawback to the .308 is cost - pure simple I can afford to put a whole lot more .223 downrange than .308, so in the long run, the .223 should make me a better shooter than the .308 (practice makes perfect). But if I'm just opening myself up to a lot of trouble at long range, then the whole point of the exercise changes from improving my shooting to fighting to keep the lighter bullets on paper.

P.S. I know that there are other calibers that change the discussion, but I want to stay with the two "military" calibers.

I too stuck with the "military" calibers" But,,, BUT,, if I were to build a Bolt gun

It would be one of the 6.5 types,,,, many of the bolt guys, shoot them, and they rock,,

unless you go BIG$$$$$$$$ .338, .416, .408 then you go from money to REAL MONEY!.

and that is a Different ball game.

[Graham Smith]

...if I were to build a Bolt gun it would be one of the 6.5 types..

I hear you, but the name of this game is .223 compared to .308 in something like an off the shelf Remington 700 SPS. Bringing in any other calibers completely changes the game and turns into a discussion that could last well into the next decade.

FWIW, I would take an almost perverse pleasure in being able to develop and shoot a .223 load in a "factory rifle" that could hang with the guys shooting the Federal Gold Match .308 ammo, but I'm just not sure that it's a practical goal.

[rrflyer]

The remington Sps Tactical models come with a 1/9 twist barrel and have been reported to be really good shooters. The 69gn SMK's have been shown to shoot really well out of it and that bullet will get you to 500 easily.

Problem is to launch the heavier bullets to get out to 700+ your gonna need a 1/7 or 1/8 and I dont know of any factory rifles that offer that.

Edited October 15, 2010 by rrflyer

[Graham Smith]

The remington Sps Tactical models come with a 1/9 twist barrel and have been reported to be really good shooters. The 69gn SMK's have been shown to shoot really well out of it and that bullet will get you to 500 easily.

Problem is to launch the heavier bullets to get out to 700+ your gonna need a 1/7 or 1/8 and I dont know of any factory rifles that offer that.

Well, the 69s are not the limit - I've got reports of people shooting 75s out of the same guns, but that really seems to be pushing the envelop at 700yds. I want the limiting factor to be the shooter, not the equipment because the shooter can hopefully get better.

[BrianATL]

Tikka varmint or rebarrel a savage/stevens both 1/8 twist around $800

[38supPat]

The last ORA Precision/Sniper match I shot my partner was a lady shooting a Savage .223 with 75gr A-max bullets vs. my Rem 700PSS .308 with SMK 175gr. We pretty much used the same hold at every distance out to 800 where I had to use just a bit less (1 MoA) and our score was pretty much the same. I'm awfully tempted to build a .223 long range rifle...I'm also going to play with my 16" AR and see what I can do at longer ranges with a precision load.

[rrflyer]

I've been looking at the same thing actually........

You ought to be able to pick up a cheapo used savage .223 for a few hundred bucks. Put a shilen 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel on it for 350. Find a b&c stock or something similiar for 150 and for 800 bucks you'd have a heck of a nice .223 capable of shooting the heavier .223 bullets.

[BrianATL]

Thats the best part of the Savage is being able to screw new barrels on yourself without a gunsmith. I can change barrels and or calibers in under 10 minutes. My 223 savage with a Lothar barrel regularly shots 1/2 MOA.

[Graham Smith]

The last ORA Precision/Sniper match I shot my partner was a lady shooting a Savage .223 with 75gr A-max bullets vs. my Rem 700PSS .308 with SMK 175gr. We pretty much used the same hold at every distance out to 800 where I had to use just a bit less (1 MoA) and our score was pretty much the same.

That's very interesting. I'm pretty sure that was a 1:9 barrel. I've looked at Savage but am not thrilled with their new triggers. A fellow in the class had one and it would fail to fire if his finger was not dead level on it - something that can be hard to do if you are not shooting from an ideal position. Since then, I have seen the same issue reported by others.

[BrianATL]

Sharpshootersupply.com for savage triggers

[fastshooter03]

I forgot to add in my post that the 75 A-Max is not suitable for AR-15 mag length for anyone who does not know this already.

Not sure about bolt action mags.

I'm not sure if it will stabilize in a 1x9 barrel.

I'm trying to get the local custom bullet maker to make me some 65 Grn VLD RBTs to see what the bc would be.

Nick

[Graham Smith]

I forgot to add in my post that the 75 A-Max is not suitable for AR-15 mag length for anyone who does not know this already.

Not sure about bolt action mags.

I'm not sure if it will stabilize in a 1x9 barrel.

I'm trying to get the local custom bullet maker to make me some 65 Grn VLD RBTs to see what the bc would be.

I would need to check on all of this, but... I have found several references to shooting the 75gr AMax bullets in 1:9 bolt actions, and my assumption from the context is that they were not being loaded one at a time.

Also, there are a number of different .224 dia bullets to try and some have some rather nice BC's. The more I look at this, the more appealing the challenge becomes. And if it doesn't work out, the rifle still has a resale value.