Can a .223 Hang With The .308s?

[Religious Shooter]

You can get a number of factory varmint rifles in .243. You can usually shoot 105's with a factory barrel. Premium .243 bullets are usually much cheaper than their .308 counter parts.

[Graham Smith]

You can get a number of factory varmint rifles in .243.

Like I said, this is about .223 vs .380 (military calibers) only. Nothing else allowed in this.

[Religious Shooter]

I must have misread but I thought your reasoning to limit yourself to .223 and .308 is that you didn't want to go custom. Why are you limiting yourself to military calibers again?

[Graham Smith]

I must have misread but I thought your reasoning to limit yourself to .223 and .308 is that you didn't want to go custom. Why are you limiting yourself to military calibers again?

Ultimately, I'm not limiting myself to military calibers, it's just that I'm really only trying to comparing these two calibers because it's kind of a David and Goliath thing. I think that .223 is underrated going into the fight and I'm curious to see what experience others have. My personal experience is that my AR15 did better against .308s than anyone expected (particularly me) and it has me wondering just how well it can do.

AND, I don't want to open this up to "what's the best long range caliber" because that can go on for years. This is .223 vs .308 and even that has enough variations that it's almost a masters thesis by itself.

[shopgun]

Its all about the wind, .223 and 308 bullets of similar bc's will travel at similar trajectories. Neither will be any better or worse in verticle acuracy. Caliber wont make much difference. What will get you is bullet weight. The heavier a bullet the less it will be affected by wind. Wind is pretty hard to calculate exact and wont be consistent.

+1... Wind will move the lighter bullets more than the heavier .308. If wind wasn't a variable, the .223 would be good out to 700 yds.

Actually it's not about bullet weight at all. It's time in flight that determines wind drift. Check out Hatchers Notebook formula for wind deflection (page 403 in my 1962 edition). D=W (T-Tv) where D= deflection of the bullet in feet caused by wind. W= wind velocity straight across range, or that component of it that acts straight across range. T= time in flight in seconds for the range at which the deflection is to be measured. Tv = time it would take the bullet to cover the same distance in a vacuum. Thats why a 60 gr. 223 drifts a whole lot less than a 350 gr. 45/70.

[Graham Smith]

Thats why a 60 gr. 223 drifts a whole lot less than a 350 gr. 45/70.

Which I guess is also a function of the BC. The higher the BC the less drag, so the more retained velocity, so the less wind drift. That fits with what I have seen. Looks like it's time to hit the ballistics tables in depth.

[shopgun]

Exactly right. I have a Speer manual that gives bullet performance strictly by BC. no matter the cal or weight, same velocity and same BC, same drift.

[M ammo]

You can play with this too...

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

[Boats]

Couple of reasons .223's do well in match guns over the course competition to 600 yards. They use different loads for the rapid & mid range legs, Mid range 600 prone it's a long bullet single loaded and a fast twist barrel with about the same wind performance as 30's. Over the course matches the .22's light recoil is a significant advantage and wind deflection can be managed by experienced shooters in the short 200 offhand and 300 sitting legs using 69 gr bullets. All you need to do is put a hole in the paper so the low energy is not an issue.

It's possible to take a set of rules tweak the gun for a specific match and make anything work, however pure ability .22's are not in the same class as .30 calibers. Significant advantage to the 30 cal bolt guns for a practical shooter is longer barrel life, not easy to switch them like in the AR. My opinion all things considered including ballistics on target 7mm or 6.5 mm on the 308 case is optimal. I shoot a 7/08 high power silhouette, the 6.5's may be a better choice. You can buy some very good high BC 7mm or 6.5 mm bullets and they have plenty of engery left arriving. Over the course to 600 I use a .223 it's best for the job.

Boats

[Jman]

Boats,

Good post.

Jim

[Graham Smith]

Over the course matches the .22's light recoil is a significant advantage and wind deflection can be managed by experienced shooters in the short 200 offhand and 300 sitting legs using 69 gr bullets.

"Over the course matches" ?

[kellyn]

Over the course matches the .22's light recoil is a significant advantage and wind deflection can be managed by experienced shooters in the short 200 offhand and 300 sitting legs using 69 gr bullets.

"Over the course matches" ?

That is referring to Highpower matches with courses of fire at 200, 300, and 600 yards, where this issue was settled about 20 years ago. Certainly the .223 can hang with the .308 in Highpower. In fact the question should really be reversed, can .308 hang with the .223?

I would take a .223 shooting 80 grain Sierra Match Kings over the .308, assuming I had a rifle that would feed from a magazine and not be a single shot. The .308 with 155s Scenars might be slightly flatter but I would take the advantages of low recoil. If I was stuck with a slower twist barrel and could not shoot 80s, I would go with the .308.

Wasn't there a reduced volume magazine that allowed 80 grain bullets to feed in the AR?

[AustinT]

Wasn't there a reduced volume magazine that allowed 80 grain bullets to feed in the AR?

I've seen the fronts of magazines cut out (5 rounds down) to allow folks to get closer to the lands, but I don't know if that'd give enough length for an 80.

My dad is a pretty good hi power shooter. At one time he was thinking of switching to .308 to gain a little bit of performance in the wind. The unanimous response from the three distinguished riflemen he shoots with was, "Don't bother."

[Boats]

No doubt about it NRA Highpower course of fire out to 600 .223's on the AR platform rule. Bolt guns in larger calibers rarely equal there performance. However the .223 is superior in that match because of the rules that particular match is shot under. AR match rifles built for over the course are not good for much else. AR .223 Service rifles are best for Service rifle matches M14 won't shoot equal scores due to the design of the gun itself and recoil.

Shoot 1000 and the 22's suffer, bolt guns in larger calibers 6.5's 7mm's mostly have a significant advantage past 600 yards. You can't get enough powder in a .223 to get the velocity required for long range. Larger case .22's loaded hot have a set of problems all there own. Most long range is shot with the larger calibers for that reason. Even .308's have trouble at long range due to powder capacity, lot of them used at 1000 in matches that require the .308 cartridge though.

Build two identical bolt guns looking for performance on paper to 600 yards same weight stock trigger scope, only difference being the cartridge. Assuming the twist rate suits low BC bullets, the .22 will shoot smaller groups. Reason is it's easier to shoot well with a low recoiler.

Key is what ballistics you need on target, lightest caliber that delivers acceptable ballistics is the one that will shoot best. If the objective is to out shoot police or military shooters that must use rifles that can deliver power on target's at mid range distance with a cartridge that does not have the same power .223's have the advantage.

Boats

Edited October 19, 2010 by Boats

[Graham Smith]

No doubt about it NRA Highpower course of fire out to 600 .223's on the AR platform rule. Bolt guns in larger calibers rarely equal there performance. However the .223 is superior in that match because of the rules that particular match is shot under. AR match rifles built for over the course are not good for much else. AR .223 Service rifles are best for Service rifle matches M14 won't shoot equal scores due to the design of the gun itself and recoil.

And therein lies the rub.... One thing I have been learning about shooting over the past couple years is that it's never about just one thing. Everything effects everything else.

For example, in the sniper course I went through earlier this year, the guys with the bolt actions had the advantage for most of the shooting, except when it came to shooting the barricades, the step wall, shooting under, supine (photo), and moving targets. It was part due to the fact that I had done that before with an AR and part because I had a rifle better suited to it.

That's why it's hard to narrow down a discussion like this. I wasn't even thinking about NRA Highpower when I first asked the question. I was just thinking about things like the sniper challenges that have been gaining popularity lately. But someone asked me this past weekend why I was looking at a bolt action rather than an AR for .223. He suggested using a standard A2 stock with a cheek pad or a MagPul PRS stock - the idea has some appeal but I'm pretty darn sure it'll be more expensive than a bolt action.

But the stock bolt actions have a 1:9 twist and few if any AR's can magazine feed 80gr bullets, so there are still limitations for anything but a custom rifle. And the more custom the rifle, the less versatile it is. Which brings us back to purpose built guns and ammo. Sigh...

What got this whole thing started was me thinking about getting a bolt action .308. But as I was looking at the cost of reloading it occurred to me that I could reload a hell of a lot more .223 than .308 for the same price and experiment around with different bullets and different loads to tune a load to my gun. I just wondered if that was going to put me on the bleeding edge of things where the equipment became the major limitation - which kind of puts a damper on things.

[BrianATL]

Also don't forget if you go the bolt gun route you are also probably going to want to add a detatchable mag system at the cost of several hundred $$$

[Graham Smith]

Also don't forget if you go the bolt gun route you are also probably going to want to add a detatchable mag system at the cost of several hundred $$

About $350 and I'm not really interested. Besides, they can require slightly shorter rounds which just makes the bullet problem worse.

[Boats]

Graham You hit it, it's all balance, one thing affects the other and in competiton only thing that counts is meeting the rule and winning the match. I have never been a sniper but expect the real difference in there rifles and ones we shoot in competion is they have a job to on target. This was a real eye opener for me when I started shooting high power silouette, The bullet has to knock steel over and the 500 meter ram is heavy, same way with Power Factors in Pistol events, it changes the dynamic completly from bullseye shooting.

Our club may be running some Sniper Rifle events. If so I am going to pull out my old 1903 30-06 Arsenal sporter with it's Weaver T 10. Load with 168 gr Match Kings & few rifles will shoot with it out to 600, if you can go prone or sitting with a sling. Round count will probably be low which limits the recoil factor. If they set up for barricades etc will use my AR service rifle and Iron sights. Depends on the course of fire. They run more of the matches it will pay to figure out exactly what is best for the job.

Boats

[Boats]

Cheap ammo ? last weekend burned a tank of gas 15 dollar entry fee and 3 meals out. Ammo was the least expensive part of the day.

Boats

Edited October 19, 2010 by Boats

[Religious Shooter]

That's why it's hard to narrow down a discussion like this.

You need to specify or at least narrow down what game you will be shooting.

It's like asking what pistol to get to shoot competitions.

What type of competition? IDPA? USPSA? IPSC? NRA bullseye? etc.

You are going to get all kinds of replies. You are going to get different answers and suggestions. And (for the most part) each one will be correct.

[Graham Smith]

Original post...

I took my AR15 chambered in .223 to a police sniper course a few weeks ago and found that it did better than I expected to shooting my own 69gr SMKs against bolt action .308s shooting Federal Gold Medal match ammo. Since then I have been pondering the question of just how well might I do with a rifle actually intended for that kind of shooting.

The question is this, in a head to head .223 vs .308 paper punching contest using virtually identical rifles from 100 to 700 yds, just how much of a disadvantage is there to shooting .223? Is it just a matter of dealing with windage or is there more to it than that?

I'm rather curious to see if just how far I can push the .223 but don't care to spend $1000 to find out it's a complete waste of time.

Caveats:

This is not about hunting or LE or combat sniping. This is about hitting paper and steel at distance.

This is .223 vs .308 hand loads only - no other calibers.

Standard Remington 700 1:9 .223 and 1:12 .308 barrels.

This just started out as a rather generic question about comparing one to the other but has kind of morphed as things are prone to doing. Basically, to simplify, I was just musing on what could be done with a .223 to something like minute of cantelope at 600-700 yds - you know, ring the gong sort of thing. Truth be told, this is probably going no where because it looks like most stock rifles in .223 are 1:9 and if I'm going to do this, I'd like to be able to load something like 77gr AMax which have a wicked BC. Although, someone did tell me to look at Tikka for better choices in twists without going custom.

[Boats]

Graham, You can shoot 69 gr Sieria Match Kings at 600 yards out of a 1/9 twist fine. Might drift a little more than High B/C bullets but is a reliable bullet at that range anyway. It's hard to beat with any bullet at 300 yards. Lots of guys find the hot high bc bullets don't give the accucary that more common bullets do in factory rifles. They seem to be more sensitive to loading precesion and good chambers than something shorter like the Match King. Factory Sieria is a lot cheaper than the High B/C small production shop bullets too.

I hardly ever shoot over the course service rifle at full distance anymore, our club runs a reduced course match. Only mid range we have is for Silouette and pratice, no pits down range. However when I do shoot 600 with the AR I use the 69 gr load, it works, I know how it shoots, and would probably drop more points shooting something not as proven in my rifle.

Out of the box you can't beat the Remington's. Metal insert stock is bedded well and for a factory barrel they are OK, easy to tune the trigger too. Buy one in .223 and give it a try, don't like it it's a easy sell, always a demand for a 700 short action. Want to re-barrel lots of gunsmiths work on them.

Boats

[BrianATL]

Savage also has a 1 in 7 twist factory gun as well (vlp dbm)

[Graham Smith]

Might drift a little more than High B/C bullets but is a reliable bullet at that range anyway. It's hard to beat with any bullet at 300 yards.

Thanks for bringing me back down to ground. You are right of course, it's easy to get carried away with doing it one better only to find that one better is fussy as hell. I'm talking with a guy now who put together reasonable priced packages with a Remington 700 action, a Shilen barrel, and a B&C stock, but then that gets away from the whole concept of shooting a "stock" rifle. Get a SPS Tactical now and shoot it for a while and if it works for me, then maybe a new stock. If not, sell it and move to .308

[Graham Smith]

I had already spent some time reading about exterior ballistics, but this has gotten my in much deeper. I've spent a few hours the past few nights researching available bullets, loads, BC's, ballistic drop charts, and windage charts. Here is a brief of what I have found.

The BC (ballistic coefficient) is essentially a profile - the higher the number the better it "slides" through the air, and the less drop per 100yd. But it's also about speed - a lower BC bullet can have a better trajectory if it goes fast enough. Of course, there are limits to this. When it comes to windage, BC plays a much larger role because a higher BC can better resist the wind shift. Weight doesn't really play into this much at all except that there don't seem to be any light weight, high BC bullets - at least not among those I looked into.

My base line to meet or beat is the Federal Match .308 168gr Sierra HPBT which has a FPS of 2650 and a BC of .435. There are better, but these have sort of been adopted as the standard round by a lot of LE agencies. If I can find a .223 load that can come close to these, then I should be able to play in the same arena.

I've been shooting Sierra 69gr MatchKing @ 2900 in my AR and that's what I took to the sniper course. The BC is .301 and ballistic trajectory is pretty much spot on to the .308 with only a 3" difference at 600 yds. But wind drift at 10mph is roughly 30% greater at 600 yds.

The Hornady 68gr Match has a BC of .355 and @ 2900 it has a better ballistic trajectory than the .308 with a longer MPBR and about 9" less drop at 600 yds. But wind drift is still not as good as the .308 but it's only about 15% more at 600 yds.

The Hornady 75gr A-Max has a BC of .435 (yes, you read that right - the same as the .308) and with a velocity of about 2850, it actually outperforms the .308 in both trajectory and wind drift. Problem is, it's too long to reliably feed in anything other than a custom magazine or one at a time. BUT,,, it has a shorter little brother.

The Hornady 75gr Match has a BC of .395 and with a velocity of about 2850, it has a better trajectory than the .308 and an almost identical wind drift at 10mph. The tough question is how will it work in a stock 1 in 9 barrel. I don't know for sure but I have found numerous posts on various forum from people saying it works well for them to 600 and beyond.

This is going to be interesting... I'm thinking, try the 68's to see how they do then have a go at the 75 Match

Edited October 21, 2010 by Graham Smith