Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Can a .223 Hang With The .308s?


Graham Smith

Recommended Posts

I still don't quite get what you are going to use this gun for...

But from what you are saying, I have to note that:

- 168's are popular. But they aren't the best bullet choice anymore. 175's and 155's are what most people are using to push their .308's. So when you use .223's 77's/75's etc. and you are comparing them to 168's, you are comparing the best .223 to the least capable of the popular .308 bullets. Why not compare the best to the best?

- You aren't taking power into consideration. If all you are doing is punching paper... fine. But given the steel that's generally used in matches, the impact of a heavy .223 round will be relatively hard to see past 500 yards. In some cases it's hard to see your misses and .223 won't be hitting the steel with authority at the longer ranges. Not a good thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 66
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Then I would say no. Overall, the .223 won't hang with a .308.

What can't it do that the .308 can? Is that from first hand experience?

I've got the book data that says it can (ballistically) but haven't done anything like this so I don't know what the limitations are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Graham,

It seems that you have asked a question in this thread that you already have answered in your mind. Take your theory out to some rifle matches and put it to the test. Look at the gear that the winners use at these matches and see if it supports your assertion. Right or wrong you will be shooting and will learn valuable lessons that are seldom found on an internet chat board. Good luck and have fun. The only long range match that I will be going to next year is the ITRC, if you can make it that would be a good test of your theory. PM me for details of the match if you like. Again best of luck to you!

Stlhead

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems that you have asked a question in this thread that you already have answered in your mind.

When I first asked, I wasn't at all sure. I know a lot more now than I did before but knowing it on paper is not the same as doing it. I was hoping that someone had some first or second hand info. So far, the only posters who have such knowledge say that people are doing it.

Based on what I have found over the last few days, I see no reason to not give this a go. I've been reading similar comments elsewhere and at this point, I'm really only waiting to hear back from one person who has hundreds of hours behind a number of different calibers. I look at it this way, it's less than $600 for a decent rifle and it'll either work out or it won't. I'm already loading .223 and have a single stage press to experiment with. At the worst, I can sell the rifle and move to .308 or just drink the kool aid and get a .243, .260, 7-08, or one of the other hot calibers.

Of course, this all brings up another subject - time - as in not enough of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 168 isn't considered a 1,000 yard bullet. Most say they lose it after 800 or so.

I believe the 75gn AMAX should be able to be loaded mag length for a bolt gun, but not for an AR15

Edited by rrflyer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then I would say no. Overall, the .223 won't hang with a .308.

What can't it do that the .308 can? Is that from first hand experience?

I've got the book data that says it can (ballistically) but haven't done anything like this so I don't know what the limitations are.

As I noted, the .223 won't have power downrange that the .308 will have.

I'd like to see the links where the people are saying that a .223 will be good for "Sniper" matches.

Like I wrote in another thread by you I shoot precision rifle in the Southwest:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95666&view=findpost&p=1097018

I started with a factory .308 700 VLS. I toyed around with using an AR in .223. After seeing that .223 doesn't do jack to steel at long range I got an upper in 6.5 Grendel. After realizing that I can't shoot a semi-auto as good as bolt-gun accurately I eventually bought two 700 SPS Varmints in .243.

With my .308 Win VLS I got 2830 fps with 155 Lapua Scenars using 45 grains of Varget. The max book loading for Varget is 46 grains. If I had used H4895, I would say 2900 FPS would have been doable.

With my 22" JP .223 I was able to get 2900 fps with H4895 with the max book loading with 75's. This was a compressed load. Maybe I could push it to 2950.

With my .243 Win SPS I get 2930 fps with 105 Hornady AMAX with REL17 using the max book charge for 100's. I know I can safely push this load further. I would say 3000 fps can be achieved safely. It's common to push a 115 to 3100 fps in a .243 WIN. A 105 at 3000 fps would be very doable.

So if you punch in the #'s, at 600 yards @ 10 MPH, 0' elevation, 59 degrees F, 78% relative humidity, 100 yard zero, 1.5" sight height:

.223: 75 AMAX (not magazine length compatible) BC .432 @ 2950 fps:

Elevation: -81.2"

Wind: 30.7"

Velocity: 1790fps => 134.2 PF

.308: 155 Lapua Scenar, BC .508 @ 2900 fps:

Elevation: -78.7"

Wind: 25.7"

Velocity: 1903fps => 295 PF

.243: 105 AMAX, BC .500 @ 3000 fps:

Elevation: -73.2"

Wind: 25"

Velocity: 1967fps => 206.5 PF

At 600 yards a .223 only has 45% of the power of the .308. The .308 shoots flatter and drifts less than the .223. The .243 shoots even flatter and has 75% of the power factor of the .308. I've found the .243 has enough power out to 1000 yards to make a good hit indication.

And as STLHD suggests, look at what the top shooters shoot in "Sniper" competitions. You won't find .223 Win shooters in the top 10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Religious shooter you hit the nail on the head with your hard to spot comments

Silouette the light calibers are getting more and more popular. NRA won't allow smaller than 6mm because they damage the 200 yard targets. Lots of guys use 6.5's though. Real but not often mentioned problem with the 6.5's is they don't throw much dirt when missing the 500 M ram. Hit the ram and it has a nice smooth surface well painted the spotter can see the strike. Miss it all but impossable to spot the miss. Get rams that are shot up rough or the target setter does not do a good paint job it's hard to see the strike. You can't see many .223 strikes at anything over 200. Back to NRA high power, strike visiblity makes no difference as the target is pulled and the strike marked.

You can't qualify something like impact visiablity very well . Club range you shoot all the time using a rifle with proven sights not much of a issue. Go to a out of town match new rifle range it's very possable to get lost in sight in and not be effective in the match. Even if well sighted when the condions change you are likely to be in trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All,

I've seen a number of comments elsewhere like the one made here by Pat Harrison:

The last ORA Precision/Sniper match I shot my partner was a lady shooting a Savage .223 with 75gr A-max bullets vs. my Rem 700PSS .308 with SMK 175gr. We pretty much used the same hold at every distance out to 800 where I had to use just a bit less (1 MoA) and our score was pretty much the same. I'm awfully tempted to build a .223 long range rifle...I'm also going to play with my 16" AR and see what I can do at longer ranges with a precision load.

But you have all made some very pertinent comments which basically point out that numbers on paper only have meaning on paper. As an intellectual exercise in understanding ballistics, they are fine but they need to be applied to a real world problem before they have any validity.

A comment I got from a friend may be the best one I have gotten, he basically said "Yes. A .223 can hang with a .308 , in some things. But you have to decide what those things are before you ask the question because they are an integral part of the question."

I originally posed the question as a theoretical question, but without thinking out the context properly. It was more of a "Hmmm, I wonder just how well a .223 could do if I experimented with loads." Problem is, there's more to it than just finding out that a Hornady 75gr Match HPBT has a ballistic curve that's pretty close to that of a Sierra 168gr Match HPBT. Because the very next point is, what are you going to do with it? If I'm going to put up a paper target or ring a steel plate at 600yds, then that's one thing, but to hit steel with enough impact to knock it down or swing it, that's different. It's not just the hardware, it's what it's used for.

Ultimately, like many things, the answer is Yes - for a given value of Yes. Give that the only thing I can currently do is to punch holes in paper, it would seem that the logical answer is to just try some different loads in it. But after looking at all the other variables, I'm not sure that there is anything to be had by getting a .223 in bolt action. For that, a .308 or one of the variants would seem to make a lot more sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes it's fun to come out shooting the under dog. Why is it so much fun to beat open gun guys with a single stack? Or even see a wheel gun shooter run a stage faster than a production guy.

No the 223 may not be the best especially if you have to move steel at range. But its hard to deny that it's a fun caliber to shoot and easier on the wallet and body to practice with than the larger caliber guns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And just when I think I have it figured out, I run across this

In F-Class there are two shooting categories, Open and F/TR. in Open class, in addition to a scope and rest you are also allowed to shoot most any caliber you want. In open class shooting with a tripod front rest and a rear bag is allowed as well. The other category in F-class is for F/TR. F/TR rules at this years national championship, are: 308/223 only, weight limit of 18.15 lbs. (includes anything attached to the rifle), shot off a bi-pod (no rail gun or return to battery set up). Of course this is relatively new and some changes and or additions are likely when the new rules come out.

I'm betting that most of the people shooting .223 are shooting AR's single shot, but I'm not sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If building best set one up for the match you are going to shoot. NRA Committee sets the equipment rules for NRA matches and sometimes things slip by that don't reason out. Except to the guys that put the rule in looking for advantage. Rules change and the right gun for one time may not be the right one for another. This added to club and individual non NRA rules is why you need so many different rifles. One time or another our club or one nearby shoots most of these matches.

F class has two divisions Open rifle has rules but very liberal rules has to be under 35 caliber. & Target rifle which is limited to .308/223 nothing in the F rules requires magazines or repeaters. Big thing about F is you can use a rest while shooting prone and can use scopes. I guess you could shoot AR but have never seen anybody do it. Suppose you could not stick a scope on a .223 Match rifle raise the cheek piece and shoot it sucessfully.

Silhouette is all offhand has two classes Hunter and Silhouette Rifle. must be over 6 mm Different weight & trigger pull and configuration rules. they use scopes. Hunters have to have magazines and feed through them Silhouette rifle can be single loaded

All the others use Iron sights

Match rifles have to be repeaters capable of loading 5 rounds they don't say you have to use the magazine though. Very few cartridge limits

Service rifle have specific rules, some strict some not so strict. .223 Or 308

Few special matches for Garand’s and O3’s unaltered

Palma rifles have to use the .308 cartridge Very specific rifle rules. Idea is they should be all the exact same. This match gave the ,308 it's long range reputation.

Confused now ? if so join the club.

Boats

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you will be shooting at old McDonald's farm then .223 will be more than enough! I shoot an underdog caliber as well. I still prefer the .308, just because I don't want another caliber to load for. If I did not need .308 for the other games I play I would be shooting 6.5 Lapua. All the cool kids are rocking the 6.5's of some sort. As for putting together a rig to shoot practical long range matches on the cheap with I hope you have better luck than me with that one. The long range games require a substantial financial commitment in order to be competitive. The most important thing to remember as far as I am concerned is to have fun, so get out there and shoot whatever you want to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...