EricW Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 The biggest thing that's "wrong" with USPSA is that so few people know how much is right about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Dave Sevigny, Rob Haught, Ernest Langdon....These people suck? Hardly. I've seen Rob Haught shoot a Beretta and make it look like Todd Jarret shooting his Open Pistol. For all of those who say IDPA shooters are not of the same caliber as IPSC shooters, wake up. As most are aware, CDP Division was won this year by Ernest Langdon shooting a double action SIG, beating out Rob Leatham shooting his Springfield 1911. Don't get me wrong, Rob's my hero, but these IDPA guys can shoot fast AND accurately also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 What is with all of the discussion of BUG? Is that a Glock Division (BUG=Butt Ugly Gun) It's the "Back-up Gun" division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 my take: USPSA shooters that don't shoot IDPA, don't shoot it because it's not (as much) fun. IDPA shooters that don't shoot USPSA, don't shoot it because it's "not realistic". Good luck briding that gap... -- Pay-to-play Nationals sounds like a good plan to me, but I've never been so take that FWIW. Eliminating prizes is preposterous. No way am I travelling hundreds or thousands of miles, at great inconvenience and enormous expense, to shoot for a trophy. Cost of participation is entirely up to the competitor. You can shoot a $300 CZ-75 or a $4000 Brazos. What this issue highlights is the image problem USPSA has in terms of cost. Regardless of what the truth is, the perception is that you need a high-dollar rig to play. We need to GET THE WORD OUT that this isn't so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 In my experience, when someone who shoots IDPA actually tries USPSA/IPSC, there is a very good chance they not only will like it, they will like it more than IDPA. There are exceptions, of course, but those are the people who will never like USPSA for whatever reason no matter what. In our area, IDPA shooters who go and try IPSC matches ususally never go back due to the elitist attitude purveyed by the competitors. We've seen it happen a lot. After shooting IPSC for more than 15 years, I thought I was used to it and ignored it. But after shooting only IPDA for a while and going back and shooting a couple of IPSC matches, the "attitudes" jumped right out and it was very clear as to the great atmosphere and comraderie to be had at an IDPA match vs. the "I've got mine, who cares if they have their's" attitudes at IPSC matches. Maybe this situation is different in other parts of the country, but in southwest Ohio, the IPSC matches have stages that are designed around pistols holding 21+ rounds in a mag. Many matches at one of the local clubs last year had stages requiring 30+ rounds from one position despite what the IPSC or USPSA rule book states. Let's face it, IDPA and IPSC are two different games with different rules just as SASS (Cowboy) shooting is different than the Steel Challenge. If you enjoy IPSC, great. If you shoot plates or pins, great. If you shoot IDPA, great. They are all shooting games. Play the one you enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 The comments by rmills are dead on point. IDPA has grown in Upstate/Central N.Y. whereas USPSA participation numbers have continued their "downward" trend for the past 3 years. Competitor numbers per match at some of the more popular clubs have fallen from 40-60 shooter per match to the low twenties-high teens if your lucky. One club has closed their doors (my home club to be exact) due to a lack of participants of the competitor and worker type. Other clubs are a hop-skip and jump away from the same fate. IDPA on the other hand is growing...adding clubs as well as adding to an already existing "circuit" of bigger matches. A NY State Championship is held in Central N.Y. as well as the IDPA Northeast Championships in the Southern Tier of N.Y. There must be a reason for this. From what I've experienced first hand ( actually getting in shooters faces and asking WHY they prefer to compete in IDPA matches over USPSA matches) the answers overwhelmingly echo the comments made by rmills. It's not a pleasant thing to hear but we ignore it at our own peril. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Maybe it's an East coast thing. Are USPSA matches on the West Coast have the friendliest guys I've met and the IDPA crowd is a bit elitiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 We don't have all these problems in Kentucky. Of course we never met a cousin we didn't like either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I've been shooting IPSC with 2 local clubs here in northern california for about a year now and I have not encountered any attitude with the folks we shoot with. The IDPA/Action Pistol folks we shot with before I found this game, though, have lots of attitude and bad things to say about anyone who shoots IPSC. Some of the people my wife and I shot with previous to finding this game, now look down their noses at us and don't socialize with us anymore . I like IPSC the way it is!.....Fun Fast COFs and Nice folks with no pretentious attitudes that for the most part don't feel superior to others because of the games they choose to play during their free time. If IPSC becomes more like IDPA, I don't think we will continue to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 In my experience, when someone who shoots IDPA actually tries USPSA/IPSC, there is a very good chance they not only will like it, they will like it more than IDPA. There are exceptions, of course, but those are the people who will never like USPSA for whatever reason no matter what. In our area, IDPA shooters who go and try IPSC matches ususally never go back due to the elitist attitude purveyed by the competitors. We've seen it happen a lot. After shooting IPSC for more than 15 years, I thought I was used to it and ignored it. But after shooting only IPDA for a while and going back and shooting a couple of IPSC matches, the "attitudes" jumped right out and it was very clear as to the great atmosphere and comraderie to be had at an IDPA match vs. the "I've got mine, who cares if they have their's" attitudes at IPSC matches. Maybe this situation is different in other parts of the country, but in southwest Ohio, the IPSC matches have stages that are designed around pistols holding 21+ rounds in a mag. Many matches at one of the local clubs last year had stages requiring 30+ rounds from one position despite what the IPSC or USPSA rule book states. Let's face it, IDPA and IPSC are two different games with different rules just as SASS (Cowboy) shooting is different than the Steel Challenge. If you enjoy IPSC, great. If you shoot plates or pins, great. If you shoot IDPA, great. They are all shooting games. Play the one you enjoy! Wow, My experience was the other way around. I still on occassions shoot IDPA but mostly USPSA due to the fun factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Interesting thread . Whether the game is IPSC or IDPA - the core group of participants will always be there.You guys know who they are.The issue of attracting new shooters though isn't a question of recruiting from the each others sport - the sport itself will always be around - but it is the calling that a new gunner has to answer for themselves , to seek the sport out on their own. Have you introduced anyone to the sport that stuck with it for more than a season? Or did the new guy that shows up all of a sudden is the same one who keeps coming back time after time.Who contributes to the work party days.Who makes an honest effort to help out during the match , even when it compromises his match performance. The gun owning public as a whole would rather own a arsenal of the latest and greatest toys and be proficient in none than to put out the effort that you guys have in time , sweat and $$ to rise to the top of the field. I agree with Bane , the ego's are to fragile to handle the reality , this shooting stuff isn't as easy ( or cheap) as most would like it to be. I've seen lots of shooters come and go - but the diehards will always be around. And because of them - so will IDPA and IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 IDPA is the ONLY pistol shooting sport where the competitor CAN compete with what they REALLY carry on their persons for protection. I compete in USPSA and IDPA with my carry gun, a 5" singlestack 1911 .45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Dave Sevigny, Rob Haught, Ernest Langdon....These people suck? Hardly. I've seen Rob Haught shoot a Beretta and make it look like Todd Jarret shooting his Open Pistol. For all of those who say IDPA shooters are not of the same caliber as IPSC shooters, wake up. I don't believe anyone here is saying that the top-of-the-line IDPA shooters aren't great. They are. What's being said is that, overall, the level of skill at a typical IDPA match is way lower than at a typical USPSA match. And, based on my own experience, I'd say that's certainly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted February 19, 2004 Author Share Posted February 19, 2004 I wouldn't go that far . Obviously it depends on the location as well as the type of matches that your "local" match director and/or clubs put on. I'm not talking about Nationals or Area level matches here, I'm talking about club level stuff...the types of matches the core of an organization's membership are most likely to experience. USPSA matches in my neck of the woods are high round count...CLOSE OPEN targets (for the most part) run-n-gun fests. IDPA matches in my neck of the woods require the shooter to draw from concealment, use cover, perform those damn "tactical" reloads and frequently make the shooter "work their magic" in the dark with or without a flashlight. IPSC shooters with skill can perform ALL these tasks but in some cases the bitching and whining afterwords is usually worthy of an Academy Award. Those that flub a reload or have trouble shooting in low light conditions or properly using cover blame the IDPA system of requirements before they blame themselves for not being able to adapt. Where does all this lead? USPSA has the market cornered on "high pressure-skill based-high speed gun handling" . IDPA has the market cornered on "low cost-tactically challenging (obviously open to individual interperation)-low pressure" shooting experiences. Wouldn't it be GREAT if we could somehow merge the two entities into something that would fit ALL the requirements without losing the very elements that make each sport unique and enjoyable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 For some reason I thought we already beat this horse to death? Do a search using IDPA and USPSA and dead horse and I think you will find it. IDPA & USPSA/IPSC are both games. Like Hockey and Soccer. Basketball and Football. Baseball and Softball. Choose the one that appeals to you most. Or do both if you are so inclined. But drop the "mine is better than yours" crap. It is counterproductive. My favorite shooting "game" is The Steel Challenge. IDPA and IPSC shooting side by side in harmony. Imagine that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 In our area, IDPA shooters who go and try IPSC matches ususally never go back due to the elitist attitude purveyed by the competitors. We've seen it happen a lot. After shooting IPSC for more than 15 years, I thought I was used to it and ignored it. But after shooting only IPDA for a while and going back and shooting a couple of IPSC matches, the "attitudes" jumped right out and it was very clear as to the great atmosphere and comraderie to be had at an IDPA match vs. the "I've got mine, who cares if they have their's" attitudes at IPSC matches. It bears emphasizing that "attitude" by and from the local shooters is a factor of the region of the country and the specific club far more than it is of either sport. I don't see anything wrong with relating personal experiences, but it seems counterproductive to attribute "attitude" to either game. It just so happens that (in my experience) the USPSA/IPSC clubs where I live do a better job at making people comfortable. At my "home club" (where the IDPA program died due to lack of interest), we go out of our way to make sure everyone feels welcome. I even give hugs when someone is especially grumpy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I see the same thing here in NM that loves to shoot sees,The first IDPA match i went to I shot my Kimber The match director came up and introduced him self and asked what i was shooting so i showed him he looked at it and said OH A FFin gamer gun and turned around and walked off. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Musta had the wrong color grips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I'm locking this thread guys, while it started out as a good discussion about USPSA, it's degenerated into "just another us vs them" thang! And we have enough of them already! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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