Disallowing interaction with targets during the walk through

[CHA-LEE]

I have a question about the viability of RO’s disallowing you from manipulate manually presented targets during the official stage walk through. Here is the basic example in question. You have a target that is not visible/engageable when its “Set” for the stage run. You trigger the temporary presentation of the target during the stage run by an action (shooting something, step pad, opening a door, pulling a rope). After the target presents and disappears during its initial “Triggering” the moving portion of the target is rigged so you can manually preset the target again by performing a manual action (opening a door/port, pulling a rope, etc). This makes the target not a disappearing target because you can manually preset it again at any time after the initial triggering.

I don’t have any issue with a target setup in this fashion. Its actually a pretty cool idea. But I do have an issue when the match staff disallows the shooters to manually manipulate the presentation of the target after its been triggered during the official stage walk through.

I would like to know what the official ruling stance is on this situation. For me I feel that a manually presented target is no different than a port or door that can be opened during the walk through after its initial movement has triggered a moving target. We should be able to manually manipulate the presentation of the target during our walk through since the target is not considered a disappearing target and we can present it manually at any time after it has been triggered.

Edited August 10, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[muahdib4]

I agree that you "should" be able to manipulate these. It would be helpful to be aware of the amount of force required and how manageable it is with one hand and how best to do it safely. In these situations it's about manipulating the port/rope/door and not about the target itself in my opinion even though it does move the target.

[Field]

yeah man im kind of curious about that too caus when im doing the walkthrough ill smash those activator pads and goof with all the circus stuff to get aquianted with the stage

[JThompson]

In my opinion the RO should show you that movement too. In other words, activate the prop in all ways possible, so the shooters can look at it. I would have no problem doing the initial activation and letting the shooters do the seconday when they walk through. As long as they keep it consistent for all, then there is really no problem though I think they should at least show you all motions.

JT

[Bass Ackwardz]

I agree with you CHA-LEE, I was on your squad at Area 3 and I was actually wondering what the actual rule was about this situation myself. Congrats on your finish as well.

Bass

[JThompson]

I agree with you CHA-LEE, I was on your squad at Area 3 and I was actually wondering what the actual rule was about this situation myself. Congrats on your finish as well.

Bass

Damn, didn't know he was talking about A3 or I would have kept my mouth shut.

JT

[AWLAZS]

I was wondering about that. At the area7 you had to pull a rope to lift the target up or pull a chair and start a swinger.

The first shooter got try the prop the rest of the squad did not. So the only person who knew what force it took to release the target was the first shooter.

[High Lord Gomer]

I can't find anything that restricts it. The following only applies to a COF that has been identified as "Closed" or "Off-Limits", though those two terms are not defined:

8.7.4 Altering stage props, targets or any other part of a COF without the approval of a Range Officer, or setting, resetting or activating moving targets on a COF identified as “Closed” or “Off Limits” will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6.

It does define Off-Limits Lines but not an off-limits COF.

[CHA-LEE]

To clarify the situation. I did run into this situation at the Area 3 match on Stage 9. I don't want to turn this into a match or official bashing situation. I just want to understand the official ruling on how this should be handled. I am a board member at a local USPSA club and help setup and run matches. Knowing how to properly handle this situation per the rules would be valuable to me and our shooters if we chose to do a target like this at a future match.

I understand that the RO's at the Area 3 match fell on the side of caution and didn't let anyone other than the first shooter manipulate the moving targets prior to shooting the stage. I understand that once they decided to do that with the first squad they had to do the same with all squads or the stage could possibly be thrown out due to some shooters getting an unfair advantage over another. As I said before, I don't want this topic to turn into a match bashing situation.

I believe that the below rules support being able to manually manipulate a target like this after it has been activated. But this specific situation is not defined in the rule book so I don't want to make an inappropriate reference to this situation and a specific rule.

Rule 1.1.5 - Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

Rule 2.1.4 - Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target locations other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible” basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire.

Rule 2.2.2.3 - Competitors must be allowed to test such obstacles before the course of fire and should be given a short period to do so.

Rule 3.2.4 - After the written stage briefing has been read to competitors, and questions arising there from have been answered, competitors should be permitted to conduct an orderly inspection (“walkthrough”) of the course of fire. The duration of time for the inspection must be stipulated by the Range Officer, and it should be the same for all competitors. If the course of fire includes moving targets or similar items, these should be demonstrated to all competitors for the same duration and frequency.

Reading through the rules I am now thinking that this was an illegal stage because they considered the flip forward target non-disappearing because you could manually make it available again. But the below rule states the definition of what a non-disappearing target is, which this target did not adhere to. The way this target functioned it should have been considered a dissapearing target because none of its scoring zone was visible at rest.

Rule 9.9.1 - Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.4). See Appendix B2 or B3 for the percent of target to be presented

Rule 9.9.2 - Moving scoring targets, which do not comply with the above criteria are considered disappearing targets and will not incur failure to shoot at or miss penalties except where Rule 9.9.3 applies.

[BMartens]

The kicker on that inital activation wasn't the amount of force required to pull the rope, it was the distance you had to pull. If you went to the rail and pulled with your left arm, you left hand would be completely behind you when the target tripped making it impossible to get your weak hand back to the gun [that was a quick bugger ]. Luckily, we got there before the squad in front of us finished and we could see how much rope it took to activate the target.

The deal on the second rope was how much force and how far you had to pull it to see a full target. It took at pretty stout pull and at least 3-4 feet of distance.

Our squad only saw the initial activation once, as usual, but we all had a chance to work with the second rope.

[JThompson]

Cha.

You need to look T this one like a continuous appearing, sine you can force it to become visible or if you could a see it from another position. What you had was an "appearing" target. Sine there is a way for you to see a portion of the A then it's not a disappearing target. Cell phone or I wod explain better...

JT

[CHA-LEE]

The key word in defining a moving "Appearing" target is that it leaves a portion of the scoring zone visible at REST after it has been activated. The target in question did not leave any portion of the scoring zone visible in its "Resting" state, thus it should have been considered a disappearing target even if you could manually present it again.

[XRe]

There's plenty of precedent that a target that is fully under competitor control will not be deemed "disappearing" - as long as the competitor can cause it to have an appropriate amount of A-zone available, of course...

There was a stage at the High Desert Classic this year (stage 2) where a door closed in front of two targets after you stood up off of a chair, and you couldn't engage them again after that point - so you had to shoot them first, and then get up. Those were deemed disappearing targets (and NROI signed off on it), so... Technically speaking, yes, they've disappeared in that they are no longer capable of being engaged... But they were available until you (the competitor) took action that made them not available, so... Whether I agree with that or not is moot, it's the way it works...

[JThompson]

The key word in defining a moving "Appearing" target is that it leaves a portion of the scoring zone visible at REST after it has been activated. The target in question did not leave any portion of the scoring zone visible in its "Resting" state, thus it should have been considered a disappearing target even if you could manually present it again.

Think of it this way buddy... You have a window you can see a target through, but after you shoot a popper the window closes and you can no longer see the paper beside it... there is however, a door 5 yards down range, that you can open and see the target again... disappearing target? NO, if you can find the A zone from another place or action (open the door or pull the string)it is NOT a disappearing target in my mind. Now there may be some of the RM/I that jump in and say I'm wrong..... but I feel pretty solid on it.

JT

Edited August 11, 2010 by JThompson

[George Jones]

JT is correct.

If the target was still "available" (can continually appear or disappear - by shooter action in this case) and provided sufficient scoring zones (per App B2 or B3), it is not disappearing.

A shooter cannot chose by his own action (or non-action) whether a target disappeares. Disappearance is beyond shooter control.

[CHA-LEE]

When you guys put it into that perspective it makes sense that it would not be a disappearing target.

To focus on the point of the original question, should the shooters be able to manipulate the manual presentation of the target any time during the official walk through since presenting the target for engagement is done by the shooter whenever they want during the stage run?

[JThompson]

When you guys put it into that perspective it makes sense that it would not be a disappearing target.

To focus on the point of the original question, should the shooters be able to manipulate the manual presentation of the target any time during the official walk through since presenting the target for engagement is done by the shooter whenever they want during the stage run?

That is a bit more complicated in that it's pretty much up to the match staff. As long as it didn't take extra time (ergo, I didn't have to run and reset a target 12 times for each member during walk through) I would probably allow it. That's not to say that the staff can say otherwise. The key for them is consistency. If the MD didn't want you to do so and he communicated this wish to the RM and he approved it then you are stuck. As a course designer, I think I know what he was up too, he gave you a known quantity and an unknown one. You know what the one looks like and the other is a unknown.

If it were up to me, I would allow you to take a look at all possible shots if only once. Look at it this way... do they reset the pressure plates for everyone during a walk through? Nope, you get one look and sometimes not that good of one. If I were to deny you access to the rope, then I would demonstrate it for you as I do swingers or pressure plates. There is no problem, imho, with the denying you access to yank on the cord... what, I feel, should be done is to show you at least once, how the target appears when manually manipulating the target.

There is no rule which would give you the right to do so if the CRO says you may not. There are lots of time I would like to see swingers a few times, but know it isn't going to happen.

Sorry if these answers aren't what you wanted to hear, but remember, it's the same for everyone!

Best,

JT

[George Jones]

To focus on the point of the original question, should the shooters be able to manipulate the manual presentation of the target any time during the official walk through since presenting the target for engagement is done by the shooter whenever they want during the stage run?

In an ideal world, yes.

Unfortunately, there are a number of valid reasons for limiting target activations by every shooter. Time is one of them. Allowing one or more activations for everyone may back-up that stage. There is also the concern of wear and tear resulting in REF - more stage delays.

What I think is an absolute, however, is if one shooter gets to do it, all shooters should have the same opportunity. It's either everyone or no one.

[CHA-LEE]

JT & George> I think that you guys are missing the point on what I am talking about. I fully understand and am ok with moving targets being initially ACTIVATED once for the squad by either the first shooter or the RO. That isn't the question here. The example I gave was a flip forward target that was initially activated by pulling a rope. When activated the target would flip forward becoming visible for a short amount of time then fall forward being not visible again. At that point you had the option of either leaving it in its non-visible resting state or you could pull a different rope to manually rotate the target backwards into a vertical position so it was visible again until you released the rope and the target would fall back down into its resting state where it wasn't visible any more.

My issue with this is that the RO's for this stage would not allow the squad to manipulate the Second rope that manually moved the target backwards so it was visible again. The only time this second rope worked was after the target was initially activated by pulling the first rope. So it wasn't a use one method of initially exposing the target or the other situation. You had the initial automated forward flipping movement by pulling rope #1 then a secondary manual backward movement of the target by pulling rope #2.

In the walk through everyone shouldn't get an opportunity to pull the first rope which initially triggers the moving target. As stated before, this is no different than any other moving target we deal with (Swingers, Drop Turners, Clam Shells, etc). But the squad should be able to manipulate the second rope after the moving targets initial triggering in order to get a fair representation of how the moving target and rope functions to present the target again for engagement.

[George Jones]

The problem with some of these after-the-fact scenarios is that they rarely include all the pertinent information when first presented. That makes it tough to answer what is an incomplete scenario. Details do matter. So....

The first consideration is that all activated targets and activators should be demonstrated equally to each squad.

Not even demonstrating the second pull is inadequate.

The second consideration is that if one shooter gets to do put their hands on it (whatever IT is), all shooters should. If the stage cannot "afford" to have all shooters do it during walkthrough, then no shooter should do it, not even the first one.

Does this help?

[murkish]

My experience has been that the RO should perform the activations/manipulations. This avoids any of the shooters getting extra information.