I learned something about Gripping a gun

[Aloha Robert]

Too much tension kills speed, and there's really no way to tension only part of the hand (consistently) without tensing the trigger finger as well.

+++s for R. Elliot, he says it all right there. Since original poster is looking for new ways, IMHO an easier way to get no tension (read very relaxed) in trigger finger is with *thumb rest [generic]*® method because of improved mechanical advantage of non dominant hand. You get benefits of reduced flip AND relaxed trigger finger, the best of both worlds.

[Torogi]

embarrassing to ask but what is the *thumb rest [generic]* method? seems everything knows about it.

[benos]

Speed comes from consistent site tracking not how high the gun lifts.

Good one!

I saw the front sight lift higher than it ever did, for each shot, during the fastest Bill Drill I ever did.

be

For me, when I see this kind of sight lift, I don't believe the gun is actually lifting any higher than it normally does but when I am tuned in and relaxed I am seeing the teal dot lift as it really happens, but when I'm tense my vision sees only a fragment of what is happening and the gun appears to move less since I see only part of the dot track

I think you are right on it.

be

[Aloha Robert]

embarrassing to ask but what is the *thumb rest [generic]* method? seems everything knows about it.

NOT embarrassing at all, since only a small minority of shooters know about it and understand it.

A very brief summary is that the *thumb rest [generic]*® Method uses the *thumb rest [generic]*® part to enable the non dominant hand to use All the hand and wrist muscles to get a solid grip with the natural opposable strength in the hand. This is in contrast to the neutral or floating thumbs method which requires significant pressure with both hands and yields the problem of trying to get a loose trigger finger on the dominant hand. This method uses significantly more mechanical advantage to enable recoil and flip control with less muscular effort.

Some will wrongly confuse this with use of traditional thumb rest and a hybrid of the neutral grip.

With the *thumb rest [generic]*® Method, the dominant hand is similar to the neutral grip but the non dominant hand is in “true neutral” (not camed forward) wrist position which allows the “grasping” muscles of the hand to do the work. (which don’t get used in the traditional neutral grip). The *thumb rest [generic]*® part allows the Thumb to get purchase to enhance mechanical advantage greatly.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[sherpa]

Sorry, but I'm not sure I follow this... are there links explaining details of this, better yet with pictures?

[Aloha Robert]

Sherpa, thanks for asking for links. However the links I know of are commercial and that would likely cross the line into promotion, so sorry no links. However we are talking about a technique, not a product so here is some info. The *thumb rest [generic]* ® Method has been shown from time to time in Front Sight.

Also, here are some amateur pics of the difference in Grip techniques.

Notice in the classic, or floating thumbs or neutral grip the wrist is cammed extremely forward (ular deviation of wrist). In the *thumb rest [generic]* ® Method the wrist is in “true neutral” allowing the grasping muscles of hand to work and natural rotation point of pistol (read fulcrum) is much higher (closer to bore axis).

Edited August 8, 2010 by Duane Thomas

[Torogi]

Hey Robert,

Thanks for the pictures, that makes it clearer (well to me a little bit because im new to open, hence using the *thumb rest [generic]* RHT product).

So, the first picture, is that the *thumb rest [generic]* method? because there is that product. On the second picture, is this the classical way you were referring to? my open gun has a *thumb rest [generic]* *product* and i noticed that when i put pressure to my weak hand/supporting hand (im right hander), i can be "thumbing" having my shots bearing left, well, sometimes.

the second picture is how i grip my Limited gun. right now it has a grip tape on the frame so i know i have my left thumb on the right spot when i grip it, i think i got this tip from Max Michel on his 3GM video.

your first picture, well that is how i grip my gun now because i have the *thumb rest [generic]* *product* but still, im a little confused with the *thumb rest [generic]* *method*.

[scap99]

I don't know about you guys, but I blew out both thumbs pretty regularly as a kid playing basketball and such. In fact, I can stare at them funny and they will jump out of socket. I don't think I would even attempt to control recoil with my thumb as the lever.

I'm not saying the *thumb rest [generic]* is ineffective, but I wouldn't want to use it knowing how weak my thumbs are compared to the rest of my grip.

Assuming you use this pedal for open shooting and practice with it quite a bit, how's your shooting when you pick up a limited or production pistol and run some rounds through it without the pedal?

[38supPat]

I'm not sure who the hand model is but is see issues with both grips. The thumb forward grip has the support hand too far forward which exposes a lot of the side of the gun which will cause inconsistent tracking. And the pinkie finger looks like it's doing it's own thing down there.

In the second picture the support hand is way too low and again too far forward exposing the left side of the grip, couple this with tension on the thumb ledge and that gun will track to the right and lost any position of natural leverage over the muzzle with the wrist that low. Compare the wrist position in the two photos.

The rear of the base of the support thum should be in contact with the lower pad of the shooting thumb and the support hand should be in contact with the whole side of the grip on the left side.

[Aloha Robert]

Hey Robert,

Thanks for the pictures, that makes it clearer (well to me a little bit because im new to open, hence using the *thumb rest [generic]* RHT product).

So, the first picture, is that the *thumb rest [generic]* method? because there is that product. On the second picture, is this the classical way you were referring to? my open gun has a *thumb rest [generic]* *product* and i noticed that when i put pressure to my weak hand/supporting hand (im right hander), i can be "thumbing" having my shots bearing left, well, sometimes.

the second picture is how i grip my Limited gun. right now it has a grip tape on the frame so i know i have my left thumb on the right spot when i grip it, i think i got this tip from Max Michel on his 3GM video.

your first picture, well that is how i grip my gun now because i have the *thumb rest [generic]* *product* but still, im a little confused with the *thumb rest [generic]* *method*.

Torogi has a great question. First the usual suspects of all the things that cause shots to go left or right should be addressed.

The answer to all as BE has taught us is observation and attention. What is the dot really doing?

Then you should be able to pay enough visual attention to the dot and your own physical proprioception from grip to see where the dot is going, and feel what is happening.

That being said, thank you for identifying the part as the incorrectly named *thumb rest [generic]* by RHT. The RHT is a very fine product but because it is difficult to mount it far enough back, one gets a hybrid technique between classical neutral and the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. Every shooter is different. However the thumbing or steering problem I have heard frequently when someone incorrectly assumed a grip somewhere in between which the more forward grip encourages. Steering is not usually an issue with a correctly mounted *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip.

[Aloha Robert]

I don't know about you guys, but I blew out both thumbs pretty regularly as a kid playing basketball and such. In fact, I can stare at them funny and they will jump out of socket. I don't think I would even attempt to control recoil with my thumb as the lever.

I'm not saying the *thumb rest [generic]* is ineffective, but I wouldn't want to use it knowing how weak my thumbs are compared to the rest of my grip.

Assuming you use this pedal for open shooting and practice with it quite a bit, how's your shooting when you pick up a limited or production pistol and run some rounds through it without the pedal?

Scap's comment cracks me up! I love it when I hear stuff like that. Off course I don't know what Scaps injury is and I would not encourage him to do anything that he or his Dr. feels is inappropriate, nor in any way make light of his conditon.

The reason it tickles me so much is that arthritis in my left thumb from a old skiing injury plagued me early as a shooter. The *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip was an early “experiment” of mine to be able to shoot Open back in the days when PF was 175 and Rob led us all the hallowed land of 9 X 25. Those guns kicked but the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip allowed me to control recoil and flip with a bum thumb. ( I had a great comp too but the "dot" did not move much.)

So I figured if I could do it with an impaired thumb, what could a good shooter do with it?

Bottom line, the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method works with very little of the thumbs potential strength.

[Aloha Robert]

I'm not sure who the hand model is but is see issues with both grips. The thumb forward grip has the support hand too far forward which exposes a lot of the side of the gun which will cause inconsistent tracking. And the pinkie finger looks like it's doing it's own thing down there.

In the second picture the support hand is way too low and again too far forward exposing the left side of the grip, couple this with tension on the thumb ledge and that gun will track to the right and lost any position of natural leverage over the muzzle with the wrist that low. Compare the wrist position in the two photos.

The rear of the base of the support thum should be in contact with the lower pad of the shooting thumb and the support hand should be in contact with the whole side of the grip on the left side.

Pat, thanks for the tips. Always nice to get free advice from the experts.

Kudos to Pat for being extremely observant of the fine points of the photos. He is right with his observations but our conclusions differ. First on the thumbs forward position, I know that is not correct and would not try and be an example in that mode, I only put it to show the wrist position in ulnar deviation.

And Pat is very observant in thinking the hand comes away from the grip but in fact does not and has very solid contact, . Please ignore the Pinky as I have a build up on the magwell (another different story)and it has nothing to do with the point, but I knew someone with expertise would spot it.

Pat is also observant on the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method picture except as above the support hand in fact excellent contact with the rest of the grip. Also one of the beauties of the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip is that it works very well with almost any thumb position (as long as the *thumb rest [generic]* ® part is mounted in correct positon) and the way it is shaped your thumb finds the right spot automatically. So I would respectfully disagree that the thumb is not in correct position, for that particular shooters hand.

Also the idea that it causes steering is a commonly held misconception that I think got some traction with thumb rests that does not use the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip or method. Steering simply is NOT a real issue with the real *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip. Steering can certainly be problem with other Thumb Rests if you try to use them with classic grip method. I think any grip method no matter what you use will initially not track perfectly until as BE says turn up your visual attention and balance things out. Like so many things in life, balance may be achieved in many ways.

Edited August 8, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[R.Elliott]

I've tried the *thumb rest [generic]* twice now; once for about 6 months and again later (different gun) for about a year. Many people were arguing in their favor so I wanted to give it enough time to really know if it worked or not. Tried mounting it forward and further back and always ended up either steering the gun or not being able to consistently take the safety off. Some days it would seem fine and other days I would be deflecting the gun all over the place. I guess it depends on how I'm feeling that particular day tension-wise, but I note that since I've removed it the gun tracks consistently straighter and sets up quicker. Naturally your mileage may vary.

[38supPat]

You likely miusunderstood, I did not mean that the hand comes off the grip, only that it is not in a good location to ensure consistent tracking. I've found myself doing this and corrected it. With the hand that far forward the gun will track erratically. When the hands are butted up together fully you will find the gun will track naturally. Otherwise you end up having to try to steer the pistol.

Here's a conversation I had with BE about it:

Ok, so I was doing some drills yesterday and noticed a problem I'm having and it may be related to some of the stuff I've asked before. Most of the drills I did yesterday were done without a draw, I've been working on isolating out things that don't have anything to do with the focus point of the item being practiced. In this case it paid off as it showed a problem. I did some group shooting first which went well, then some entering and leaving boxes and some shooting on the move. All started with gun in hand and a good grip. At the end I did a simple draw and fire on four targets at 12yds. All the runs on the movement drills and all the group shooting had extremely high A counts. I'd drop a max. Of 4 point on any run (each run had 4 component strings of 4 to 8 shots. Variation on a devils triangle drill) I only had one D all day until I added the draw for the last few runs on the four targets @ 12 yds. When I added the draw, the gun was tracking awful, doing big loops and back and forth. Previously it was tracking great when I started with gun in hand.

I guess this is the long version of saying I am not getting a good, consistant grip on the draw. You have previously mentioned getting the gun out of the holster quickly, then adjusting on the way to target. I've been trying to get a good grip on it before drawing (Todd told me to try this awhile ago) but obviously I'm not. So do you have a more relaxed/open grip when you get the gun out of the holster so that you are not locked on it and able to adjust on the way up? Do you adjust when the hands come together? I'm looknig for some things to try in practice. I need to find a way to get my grip correct by the time I'm ready to shoot

Thanks

Pat

Whew. This would be good question for the main forum....

A couple things...

I would never attempt to adjust a "bad" grip, if was still bad when both hands came together. If it was still bad at that time, just shoot it.

But you might be surprised how well you might shoot in that situation, if, you weren't all clamped down on grip with a death grip. If you have a hosed grip that you know you are going to shoot with, quickly tell yourself, "hey, relax your grip and watch/track the sights like you never have before." I've had some amazing experiences after that little command.

The goal is to come out of the holster with a perfect grip. In order to do that, your hand has to be fairly relaxed as it is first contacting the grip, and, you have to have practiced the draw stroke long enough so that your hand arrives on the grip, pretty much in perfect position, every time.

Or put differently, I would not sacrifice a perfect grip for a quick draw.

If you happen to come out of the holster with a bad grip, and you are loose and aware enough to correct it before the support hand gets there, then by all means do that.

You need to practice your draw until you feel and know you are going to get a perfect grip in the holster, before the draw starts.

I can distiinclty remember that feeling. It was like the pistol was already in my hand when my hand was still in position.

be

Ok, thats pretty much the way I was going, but when I noticed I was shooting worse after drawing than I was starting with the gun in hand with the grip sorted out, I reread your book and you said to get your grip close to correct and make adjustments on the way up and "Overall, there's extra speed in getting the gun out of the holster faster as opposed to waiting on a perfect grip before you lift the gun clear."

So I was just checking to see if maybe I needed to try something different in order to get my grip the way I want it before shooting.

Interestingly, when I was shooting the four target array and was trying different feelings and sight focuses to see if I could get the sight to track I was throwing about 4 to 6 points including at least 1 D per run. Previously I had only tossed 1 D for the whole practice, including multiple 32 round sets of strings. I was running around 3.5 to 4.00 for the 8 shots while looking for sight lift or trying to see the dot stop on each target. near the end I decided to change my focus and just look to each target and "see" the dot. These runs were all around 2.74 and dropped the same points on the same target (my worst target was always the second target, usually this had the D while the first and last would be A's) ...yeah, I know not seeing the target or stopping the gun properly...my splits went from .30 - .35 on the first runs to .22 - .25 after.

When I shot the strings when I was working on box to box and shooting on the move, it looked and felt like the dot was glued to the A zone. I couldn't toss a point if I wanted to. So I'm not sure why suddenly it didn't seem like I could find the A zone afterwards.

Getting the same "perfect" grip, every time, and setting up your body the same way "behind the gun," every time, cannot be overemphasized. Whether or not it's from a draw.

be

Big AHA! Dryfiring it out today and it's my support hand causing the problem. My gun hand was getting a pretty consistant grip, then I noticed the support hand was not getting in properly on the grip. Left a gap in my grip which is likely causing the circular tracking I saw. I was working off a contact point on my weak hand index finger and looking to make sure it hit the bottom of the trigger guard the same each time, but I was missing the fact that the heel of the hand was setting up in a different place each time....looks like I have some dryfire to do and get rid of a bad habit.

Train your grip until you can summon it by remembering it as "one feeling."

be

[Aloha Robert]

You likely miusunderstood, I did not mean that the hand comes off the grip, only that it is not in a good location to ensure consistent tracking. I've found myself doing this and corrected it. With the hand that far forward the gun will track erratically. When the hands are butted up together fully you will find the gun will track naturally. Otherwise you end up having to try to steer the pistol.

Here's a conversation I had with BE about it:............please see Pat's post of Aug 8, 2010 post long quote follows

I think Pat is very astute. I did not mean to imply his conclusion was erroneous because of whether or not the hand comes off the gun.

It doesn’t, but the main point I would like to correct is the notion that this technique causes steering or yawing or windage or whatever term of art you choose.

It simply DOES NOT.

In fact because of the nature of the natural grip AND the natural opposing grip of the non dominant fingers, yawing or steering is REDUCED. Pat’s misconception is very common and not to be faulted, especially with those that have tried to apply the neutral grip method with a thumbrest, not a *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. Pat is right that frequently the thumb can cause yawing with a neutral or classic technique. This concept if applied to most thumrests has in fact yielded the steering problem Pat is aware of and repeating.

BUT because of way the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip is designed it eliminates that problem AND allows the hand to use natural grip muscles to just about get 2 axis 180 degree control. If griped correctly it actually stabilizes yaw or windage as well as flip.

I think those interested should definitely read the full post of his conversation with BE as it talks about how to transition into the “perfect” draw and what to do if your grip is not “perfect”. I LOVE the way Brian puts the "perfect" adjective in quotes because it makes it much more applicable to any “perfect” grip that is “perfect” for that individual.

I think those that are willing to try something different will find the mechanics of getting the “perfect” grip MUCH simpler with the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. (if it is “perfect” for them). And I just love BE quote about making it a "feeling". I would dare to go one better, a "feeling" you don't have to think about.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[Singlestack]

Pat’s misconception is very common and not to be faulted

[G-ManBart]

Pat’s misconception is very common and not to be faulted

Can we go back to just talking about the grip now?

I think thumb rests deserve their own thread. After much experimentation and internal debate, I'm taking the thumb rest off one of my guns for the next month or so. I have a feeling it won't be going back.

[Singlestack]

I just deleted a spammer post and 2 posts that quoted it. Please do not quote spammers.

[twikster]

As you know from shaking hands with a variety of people, grip strength varies. So does the stamina of that grip. With lots of proper training, both the strength and the stamina can be increased, by quite a bit. Don't be surprised if someone's "relaxed" grip is capable of crushing your hand! :-)

[Torogi]

5 matches in at Open Division, i think there is one thing i left out when dry firing, GRIP power!! I've manage to get a perfect grip each time, but i have always left out gripping it harder because its dry fire, it is not gonna recoil anyway so during matches i tend to forget that.

its muscle memory. the more elements i practice, the less 'learning' i have to do downrange.

[scorch]

Nooooo

Lol

The dot should lift and immediately settle back to point of aim.

OK the Dot on my gun goes up as the slide stops at the frame, then Just below point of aim. because of the Slide closing forces it down slightly then the dot comes up just above point of aim, and then settles at point of aim, for one shot. On multiple shots it never settles and is continuously moving up and down past the point of aim inside the A zone for about 4-6 inches at 10 yds. Am i doing something wrong or is this what it is suppose to do.

[Flexmoney]

Nooooo

Lol

The dot should lift and immediately settle back to point of aim.

OK the Dot on my gun goes up as the slide stops at the frame, then Just below point of aim. because of the Slide closing forces it down slightly then the dot comes up just above point of aim, and then settles at point of aim, for one shot. On multiple shots it never settles and is continuously moving up and down past the point of aim inside the A zone for about 4-6 inches at 10 yds. Am i doing something wrong or is this what it is suppose to do.

Test it.

Do the complete Burkett Timing Drill...with varying amounts of grip pressure.

[Singlestack]

OK the Dot on my gun goes up as the slide stops at the frame, then Just below point of aim. because of the Slide closing forces it down slightly then the dot comes up just above point of aim, and then settles at point of aim, for one shot. On multiple shots it never settles and is continuously moving up and down past the point of aim inside the A zone for about 4-6 inches at 10 yds. Am i doing something wrong or is this what it is suppose to do.

Sounds like you have too much recoil spring too.

[Wild Gene]

Do a YouTube search on this. You will get several opinions. I like Saul Kirsch's explanation on grip.

[patchman]

So after i read Matt Burkett's book Practical shooting, and im still on BEs Practical shooting page 20 i thought im due for live fire and test to see what i have learned so far.

So for me, since i just converted to open division, i thought ill start from the bottom. how to grip and hold the gun. With Matts book and BE's book, i have pretty much decided how to grip the gun, but i wouldnt know until live fire.

When i was at the range, i did all sorts of grip i can think of (single shot only), loose, tight, relax, weak hand, strong.. i thought my load Autocomp 7.2gr 125gr MG JHP, no holes, still kicks bad, but anyway, with freestyle, my dot movement is minimal. at 10 feet, split of .25sec, it stayed at the A-zone, i guess end to end (12 o'clock, 7o'clock second shot). splits of .40, 2 shots within an inch.

One thing i didnt expect to learn though, taking account of BE's conscious mind. i did try to watch my muzzle flip (like a 3rd person), with my normal decided shooting grip, i saw a lot of muzzle flip, so hmmm... how about gripping MORE, *like* a death grip. a voila.. no muzzle flip. i was surprised by this. i remember BE and Matt not a fan of 60/40 but the thing is, it is not 60/40 anymore, but *how much* do you have to grip it.

if i can grip Pro hands extra heavy tension, and after 10 seconds my hand starts shaking, should i grip this way? maybe in time ill learn how to grip it with the best of my ability without my hands shaking. i have read numerous threads about gripping, the right grip, how to grip, but i think its more on how much you have to grip. i just started shooting June of 2009 and i just experienced this yesterday.. with just 20 pages down on BE's book which i could've learned from the get go.

one other thing, personally i think there is no death grip. there can be gripping too much, but one can train in a way that you can grip too much and put it to your advantage.. that i need to learn.

just sharing...