DQ?

[TheBrick]

A competitor received a match DQ for firing a shot downrange while retrieving his loaded handgun from the starting position located in a filing cabinet drawer. The round went through the filing cabinet and impacted not closer than 2 yds. from the start position nor over the berm and, obviously, not in the holster or uprange.

The discussion is whether S-1-F absolves this action from a DQ or S-1-E and S-7 (both require finger out of the trigger guard during... drawing.) require the DQ.

Kind of makes sense both ways.

What defines a "draw."

Thoughts anybody?

[Ted Murphy]

rule s1 applies here. This falls under unsafe gun handling. The examples listed are not inclusive. Firing a shot inside an enclosure such as a filing cabinet is not safe and does warrant a DQ. The MD of course has some lattitude to define "unsafe".

This does not imply the shooter is an unsafe individual. This simply means for that slice of time the shooter made a mistake and it was appropriately addressed.

[jmorris]

A few years ago at the TX State match the shooter, drawing from "the box" put a round through the box and into the target. He paused for a few seconds then went on to finish the match.

[Duane Thomas]

Amazing.

[texbran]

I have been to abunch of matches that I think would have ruled this call both ways.It is unsafe gun handling.But the round went in a safe direction down range and into the burm.

Your call not mine.

[cslafrain]

This is just my opinion but an AD is an AD and it deserves a DQ regardless of whether it was in a safe direction or not. The finger should not be inside the trigger guard at any time until on target and ready to squeeze off a round. It breaks one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety. If I did it during a match, I would have to DQ myself and be done for the day.

Edited July 27, 2010 by cslafrain

[TheBrick]

I have been to abunch of matches that I think would have ruled this call both ways.It is unsafe gun handling.But the round went in a safe direction down range and into the burm.

Your call not mine.

In much discussion off the forum and the answer given by Ted on this topic; they all seem to indicate that it is a call to be made by the MD.

I personally would find it hard not to find it as unsafe gun handling.

[TheBrick]

This is just my opinion but an AD is an AD and it deserves a DQ regardless of whether it was in a safe direction or not. The finger should not be inside the trigger guard at any time until on target and ready to squeeze off a round. It breaks one of the 4 basic rules of gun safety. If I did it during a match, I would have to DQ myself and be done for the day.

I couldn't agree with you more but under what rule? You seem to be the only one who was willing to speak on the rule S-7 (finger out of trigger guard unless on target) which I think applies.

[TheBrick]

rule s1 applies here. This falls under unsafe gun handling. The examples listed are not inclusive. Firing a shot inside an enclosure such as a filing cabinet is not safe and does warrant a DQ. The MD of course has some lattitude to define "unsafe".

This does not imply the shooter is an unsafe individual. This simply means for that slice of time the shooter made a mistake and it was appropriately addressed.

I just got this thought from a USPSA shooter and I believe it answers the question.

It is unsafe gun handling under S-1-F as the round impacted closer than 2 yards from the firing line. The round impacted inside the filing cabinet.

Credit to Grumpy One

I agree that the shooter in not an unsafe individual and did not mean to infer that idea. If we all shoot long enough, at some point we are likely to make a mistake that would earn us a DQ.

[Field]

yeah idk if some dude blasts through a prop unintentionally due to a negligent discharge that gets a ''your done, son.''

[jmorris]

S1. F. Is the rule that would allow me to spare the shooter a DQ.

“S1 Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate disqualification from the entire match.

Examples …”

“F. A premature shot: in the holster; striking behind (up range of) the firing line; into the ground downrange closer to the firing line than two yards; or over a berm.”

I read this as not forcing an immediate DQ for a “premature shot” that impacted two + yards away as long as it stays inside the berm.

Also the shot I was talking about above not only went through the prop but the intended target as well.

[jmorris]

Also note "the ground" is the only thing you can't strike inside two yards.

[hankfan79]

After a AD like that, I wouldn't want to finish shooting anyways. I think my mind would be so mushy after the incident that I think it would be safer for me to step back and let it go.

I think the main thing here is to not be so concerned about a DQ and be more concerned in how NOT to do that again.

Right?

[TheBrick]

S1. F. Is the rule that would allow me to spare the shooter a DQ.

S1 Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate disqualification from the entire match.

Examples …

F. A premature shot: in the holster; striking behind (up range of) the firing line; into the ground downrange closer to the firing line than two yards; or over a berm.

I read this as not forcing an immediate DQ for a premature shot that impacted two + yards away as long as it stays inside the berm.

Also the shot I was talking about above not only went through the prop but the intended target as well.

Thanks for clarifying that the AD must strike the "ground." Props are exempt.

I fully understand S-1-F would excuse the action of the shooter. Why is it no one seems to want to address a DQ under S-1-E (dangerous finger in the trigger guard violation during drawing). Also S-7 - keeping finger out of the trigger guard during the draw.

Edited July 27, 2010 by TheBrick

[TheBrick]

After a AD like that, I wouldn't want to finish shooting anyways. I think my mind would be so mushy after the incident that I think it would be safer for me to step back and let it go.

I think the main thing here is to not be so concerned about a DQ and be more concerned in how NOT to do that again.

Right?

I agree, if that happened to me all I would want to finish is that case of Keystone.

[jmorris]

Why is it no one seems to want to address a DQ under S-1-E (dangerous finger in the trigger guard violation during drawing). Also S-7 - keeping finger out of the trigger guard during the draw.

I guess I look at it as they define “dangerous” from E in the next sentence F.

S7. Has it’s own results (bottom of p7 A. and B.) that allow for MD discretion for a DQ, even if the shooter has multiple violations during the match.

I wouldn’t view retrieving the gun from anywhere but your holster as a “draw” but even then the rule I quoted above (F) specifies an AD “in holster” can be ok under specific conditions.

In the end, the way the rules are written allow me to refer to “ANYTHING that can be done to eliminate judgment calls on the part of the safety officers is encouraged.” from page 51. That allows me to follow the safety officer responsibilities #“2. Remember that the shooter is always given the benefit of any doubt.”

I will admit there are a lot of ways to DQ a person for an AD. However, if I feel there was not a safety issue, I’m not there to pencil whip them and I can quote rules that will back me up.

Edited July 27, 2010 by jmorris

[texbran]

Morris how many beers did it take for somebody to read all the rules to you. Coming up with the argument is no problem is it.Are you shooting Hot Springs?

[jmorris]

Not trying to argue at all, just pointing out that the rule book gives us some wiggle room to make sure everyone can have a fun and safe time, even if they are not 100%.

I'll be in Hot Springs but can I get a different bunk this time? The last one made my head hurt the next day.

[texbran]

I bet we can find you a better bed. Maybe we can keep the body count down to about 10 or 12.

[Bogey]

I wouldn't care if the shot hit the ground or not. MY common sense would tell me that striking anything within that 6 foot distance would qualify as "the ground".

Is it OK to strike a wall you're using as cover that's two to 3 feet in front of your face?

To have one's hand INSIDE a steel file cabinet drawer while letting one rip could have been a MAJOR catastrophe. What if the jacket peeled off the bullet and somehow sliced his hand? Would he continue to shoot just because his round didn't strike the ground within 6 feet of the firing line?

Pure and simple...common sense says DQ. If I was the SO on that stage, the guy would be pasting and setting the rest of the match.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Bogey

[Gryff]

S1. F. Is the rule that would allow me to spare the shooter a DQ.

“S1 Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate disqualification from the entire match.

Examples …”

“F. A premature shot: in the holster; striking behind (up range of) the firing line; into the ground downrange closer to the firing line than two yards; or over a berm.”

I read this as not forcing an immediate DQ for a “premature shot” that impacted two + yards away as long as it stays inside the berm.

Also the shot I was talking about above not only went through the prop but the intended target as well.

Somewhat true, but S1.E. references "dangerous...finger in trigger guard violation during...drawing." Egregiously punching a hole in a prop this way pretty much constitutes a dangerous incident of the finger in the trigger guard. A DQ is completely appropriate.

[Steve Koski]

At an IDPA match back in 1998 a good friend of mine punched a .401" hole through a card table. It struck the ground some distance downrange, probably greater than 2 yards. He was DQ'd.

If I were the shooter, I would expect a DQ for AD'ing through a card table, night stand, etc.

[Ty Hamby]

Last month while SO-ing I had a shooter finish. I gave her the "unload show clear" command. She was using a G34 aftermarket barrel (KKM). She strips the mag then yanked and tugged, finally looking at me and said "its a tight barrel". I gave her the "I'm starring at your gun" nod. Unable to pull the slide back she lets go with one hand and pushes the gun out, around the cover wall and yanks off the round. I anticipated what she was doing so I quickly looked left and right for the impatient tapers and brass'er which were patiently waiting for the "range is safe command". I followed up with the "slide down, hammer down, holster".

I told here I knew what she was getting ready to do but in the future please ask the SO for permission next time so he can verify safety. I then showed the ASO the new time on the clock while she was holstering.

When I was finished SO-ing another shooter came up to me and said "did she shoot after the unload command?" I replied yes but she shot downrange at the berm to clear her weapon which is not against any rules I know of as long as it is safe. I also dinged her on her time. Added about 8 seconds between final COF shot and clearing gun shot.

I believe I acted correctly, opinions?

[Field]

I believe I acted correctly, opinions?

yeah sounds good to me, im not sure why she'd have some huge problem removing the round without having to fire it out of the gun seems kind of goofy

[High Lord Gomer]

I have never had to let someone fire a pistol to remove the last round but have had several .22s that wouldn't extract from ARs with .22 conversions during Steel Challenge matches. We frequently let people shoot those last rounds out. The timer is not an issue in SC because they have already hit the stop plate. I do have a problem with her not asking if it was OK to shoot the last round but I'm not sure about including that shot in the time.