Bear1142 Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 CHP5, Thanks for the vote of confidence. I usually will use the "up" style for long, off hand shots. The most accurate shooters in the world use this style for a reason. Its a very stable shooting platform. Fortunately, we don't have too many stages with 200 yard off hand shots. I will also use it if I'm bracing the rifle around a right sided barricade or wall. KurtM, I completely agree on the "overcontrolling" issue, if you put your support hand on the magwell. I tried this hand position and I got some incredible transitions, but only if the targets were 7yds or closer. At 10 yds, I noticed I couldn't stop the gun precisely where I wanted it. I would pendulum into the A zone and all my savings on my fast transitions would be eaten up by the pendulum swing. I stopped trying at 15 yards as it was clearly becoming slower. I also can't remember the last time I hit my elbow on a wall in a match, but in another world I have clobbered a couple of lamps and one bookcase that left a mark, but I digress. I find having the elbows down helps me negotiate the run & gun stages smoother. I feel faster, setting up and disengaging from targets and transitioning the rifle from shooting to low ready in preparation for movement to the next shooting position. I think the point reiterates my earlier point. The traditional, elbows up (or out) stance has been around in varying degrees for some 100 years. It's pretty well been mastered and it dominates in all hi-power, long range accuracy type contests; While the elbows down style has not evolved into a universally known position. There are many subtle variations and problems (or lively debates like we have here) arise when people are debating the pro's and con's, but they are not on the same page. We each have a understanding of the "new" down style, but apparently they are not the same. This sounds like a good round table discussion after a good match. Maybe after the 3 gun Nationals. Beerwench! Bring another pint for me and my brothers in arms! Well, a man can dream, can't he? Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 Cool!! Benny and I and Todd like dark beer!! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 DARK,DARK beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 Benny: I am bringing cider and some VERY dark porter I just made. You will like it! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Snyder Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 My shooting partner's alter ego "Mikey" has been after me for a couple of years to shoot the close in stuff with elbows down using the vertical foregrip and a shorter A1 stock...(we taxpayers have spent a lot of money sending Mikey to schools)....and I have to admit that my under 100y offhand groups are considerably better.... but I won't admit it to him.... will I ever be able to beat the guys mentioned by Benny.... not unless I hamstring them first.... conclusion is that it's probably a good idea to try techniques to see if you can benefit... after all I stubbornly held on to the high grip, weak thumb over strong thumb advocated by Col Cooper for the 1911 for a bunch of years after the parallel thumb forward grip was introduced.... regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 BTT... I'm really happy this thread got started. But I need pictures. Anybody know of any pics of the top dogs shooting long guns that we could link to on here? I've got two weeks to learn how to shoot a long gun and I'm still not quite sure which end gets pointed down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 For action 3 gun rifle & shotgun, it never occured to me to use elbows down since the 3 role models I had were Jerry, Kay & Jim. Elbows up for action stuff, STC rifle and aerial shotgun. There is a great photo of Jerry on the USPSA home page but it's an animated gif and I don't know how to separate the Jerry pic out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 Thanks Renee. Whew! So the small, pointy end *does* go downrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 15, 2004 Share Posted July 15, 2004 I've got some digitals of Taran at the Area 5 3-Gun. Who can I send whopping big jpegs to, to get them sized down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 I've got some digitals of Taran at the Area 5 3-Gun. Who can I send whopping big jpegs to, to get them sized down? Patrick, I'm still on dial and wait, otherwise I'd say send them to me. But I'll make another offer: Just put the card into the camera and mail the whole thing to me. While I'm going hog wild with your camera and trying somewhat hard to not drop it out of the canoe, I'll find some time to re-size the .jpg's. After 6 or 8 months, I might send your camera back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Patrick, e-mail them to me, I am still hanging at home recuperating so it is no hassle and I have a high-speed connection. Alternatively I could talk you through making web sized images yourself in Photoshop which you said was already on your new Mac. PM me for e-mail and/or phone. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 Re: the pic of Jerry Miculek above ... Some people would look at that and call it "elbows down." To me, "up" is a little higher, and "down" is significantly lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted July 16, 2004 Author Share Posted July 16, 2004 I would call them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 16, 2004 Share Posted July 16, 2004 I would call them up too. And the photos are on the PC. But I'll send them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Go to the "Gallaries" here on the forums and look up the European shogun championships. There are several good pictures of a wider ( elbows up) stance, and some down! Two of the pictures show guys shooting slugs on the Storming the castle gates stage. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 OK, my first attempt at posting pictures on the forum: This is Taran on a Warp 6 stage. Notice the right elbow is down but the left is up. Me, shooting both elbows down, as I shoot all long guns now. Ted Puente, Limited Champ at the Area 5, shooting a more classic style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahauptman Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 OK, my first attempt at posting pictures on the forum: Pat, you need to post all your pic's from the AREA 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Euro SG Champs Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Steve, ALL Area 5 photo's? I think our host would have an attack of the vapors were I to post (let's see, carry the one...) 217 photos with captions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocco Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Steve,ALL Area 5 photo's? I think our host would have an attack of the vapors were I to post (let's see, carry the one...) 217 photos with captions. Why not produce thumbnails of them, Patrick, and storing the little rascals in a public server such as "Hunt101" or your pic server of choice? I doubt that you'd log more keyboard time doing that then sizing-resizing-copying-pasting-formatting-posting the pics as they are right now. Besides, it would reduce the general load of the forums, not having to download the bigger pics. Having said that, what GREAT pics! I wish I could be there! Best regards, Rocco PS: Please accept my congrats for your work "Gunsmithing: Shotguns". It's my first from you, but the others will follow shortly, I'm sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sharp Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Usually the discussion of elbows up versus down stems from the competition versus combative debate. This guy seems to be pretty knowledgable concerning both competition and combative issues. Check out his elbows. http://vikingtactics.com/ForSale/FiringtoTransition1.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 You want my comments? More to the point, would he? The buttstock is too far out, not in the pocket, his stance is too upright, and where are his safety glasses? That said, it would work, and probably has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sharp Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 You're kiddin', right? (no smilies so I'm not sure). Its a simple staged photo for the purpose of exhibiting the v-tac sling, but it does show a slice of his shooting platform, that relates to the topic. With that in mind, I don't think there is a need for glasses, or an athletic forward lean, unless he actually is going to touch off a round in the photo area. But he does demo those attributes in the 1100 video. Buttstock being to far out? Do you mean the adjustable version? Lots of military guy's shoot it that way. Some top military trainers insist on using the A2 as their training tool so there is no excuse regarding the non-stock rifle issue. Sort of a, nothing special here, if I can shoot it with an A2 so can everybody else, type thing. Don't know if that is Kyle's reasoning or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 That's Kyle? OK. By "too far out" I mean it is out on the shoulder joint, not the chest pocket. I learned to shoot a rifle with an M1 Garand, and a few shots with the stock out there will teach you the true meaning of "chiropractic realignment." In a perfect world, one's stance would be the same regardless of the gear you're showing off. (Gun gear, gun gear, Rhino.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I'm reletivly new to 3-gun so would realy like to hear if this elbow up/dwn thing really makes such a big diff. Offhand I shoot weak side at ±45 deg down and stong side up (parallel to ground) - same when shooting clays (ATA, DTL).... Prone elbows dwn...duh.... Other supported methods depend on the support.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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