Loading Magazines Under the clock

[Duane Thomas]

And of course the stage Duane related was just plain old bad. A stage designers personal bias should never enter into the picture like that.

But SO much fun to murder, anyway.

[Model19]

Ty, i looked at your stage,looks good other then the part of shooting targets in tactical sequence from cover..do you guys always do that ?? shouldn't that read "tactical priority"??

You are correct. It should read TP. I will change it by the match tomorrow. Thanks. I will also report back at all the boo's and hisses I get tomorrow. The club tomorrow. Isnt and IDPA Club. No gun divisions. Everyone shoots for overall. Kinda a "fun Gun". If the stage works out I will tweak it and use it in an official match.

Ty, one question.. enagage PP1 and PP2 "if still a threat" ???? That can't mean they are optional targets.

[Steve Koski]

"If still a threat" probably means "if they haven't been knocked over."

[rvb]

I think starting with an empty gun sucks bad enough. Loading mags is rediculous, imo. Might as well time me to put on my belt and eyes and ears, too. I'm all for distractions from the shooting, but I consider that just a waste of everyone's time...

my 2c.

-rvb

[Chris Christian]

There are many shooters who do not consider it a waste of time. They consider it a nice " out of the box" experience. And, some actually learn something from it. For those who would rather dispense with all that nonsense, there is always USPSA. Load all your mags and shoot all the targets as fast as you can run. Thinking not required. I do that when I really want a lot of trigger/reloading time (I shoot Revolver and L-10 and use my SSR and CDP gear). As for IDPA, sometimes you actually.... Geez!!!... have to think. I like that. So do a lot of other shooters. In fact, the membership roles at IDPA are growing at a faster pace than USPSA.

Chris Christian IDPA A23489 USPSA A-55647

Edited June 28, 2010 by Chris Christian

[Steve Koski]

That'll lock the thread for sure!

[Chris Christian]

Oh darn!... did I do that again? I think I have to go back to my 12 Step program and talk to the other members. I keep screwing up like that.

Chris Christian

[RobMoore]

"Thinking not required"

Come up a couple classes and say that.

[Strick]

. As for IDPA, sometimes you actually.... Geez!!!... have to think. I like that.

Yeah telling you what targets to shoot in what order and from which position is a real brain teaser **. The only thing that starting with loose ammo makes me think about is....."somebody has been practicing this at home and thought it would give them an edge at a match but I still beat them"

** Not a comparison between the 2 sports and in no way is intended as a slam on either one.

[rvb]

I don't get the game A vs game B stuff... I had just as many unloaded gun starts in both. So I don't think the game bashing was necessary, or correct. Thankfully, I've never had an unloaded mag start.

As for thinking... how much thinking is required to load mags? I'm sorry, I don't follow. Even I can chew gum and load mags at the same time, so it can't be that hard.

edit: re. thinking... well, an FTDR is 20 seconds. I think I'd be timing how long it took me to load 2 mags. that'd be close.

-rvb

Edited June 28, 2010 by rvb

[Ty Hamby]

Yeah telling you what targets to shoot in what order and from which position is a real brain teaser **. The only thing that starting with loose ammo makes me think about is....."somebody has been practicing this at home and thought it would give them an edge at a match but I still beat them"

** Not a comparison between the 2 sports and in no way is intended as a slam on either one.

I shoot both sports myself. IDPA was the best venue for this type of skill. Under extreme circumstances it would be a necessary skill. I hope you practice all your self defense skills at home.

Everyone really enjoyed shooting it. Only a couple of shooters had an unhappy look on their face. Those folks are the same folk that tend to whine frequently.

IDPA A36150

ICORE CA2395

USPSA A67318

[Strick]

Everyone really enjoyed shooting it. Only a couple of shooters had an unhappy look on their face. Those folks are the same folk that tend to whine frequently.

IDPA A36150

ICORE CA2395

USPSA A67318

Maybe the ones that looked unhappy are the ones that didn't get the memo that it was a IDMLA match designed to train people in the fine art of defensive mag loading.

[Chris Christian]

If you can chew gum and load mags at the same time, what's the problem? Everybody else is shooting the same COF under the same rules. If you can chew & load faster than most, you should be able to score fairly well. Isn't that is the point of a competitive event... to see who can do it better than the rest... regardless of what it is?

Rob Moore... I understand your comment on "moving up a couple of classes". That's not on my schedule. I shoot USPSA revo with my 4-inch Minor caliber SSR gun, am 60-years old, with shakey knees, and don't care to play the USPSA game for real, unless (and I do at times) want some serious trigger/reload time with my IDPA gun when I'm shifting from semi-auto to revo. As for normal shooting, I'm not running 50 yards and going back to pick up 8 or more Comp IIIs just for fun (those things are expensive and I hate to loose them!). It's not fun for me... especially in Florida during the summer months. That's one of the reasons I prefer to invest my serious match time... travel/expense time (Sanctioned/Regionals/Nationals) in IDPA. IMHO USPSA is a track meet with guns, while IDPA is more of a choreographed event that tends to favor us Senior Citizens a bit more.

Beyond that... all opinions welcome!

Chris Christian

[Chris Christian]

Speaking of opinions... my time as a IDPA SO has shown me that there will always be a whiner, or two. I think we've met some here.

Chris Christian

[jkatz44]

This is surely going to be closed.

Edited June 28, 2010 by jkatz44

[Steve Koski]

Probably, but it's a hell of a good thread anyway. Good to have on record.

[jar]

How about if something you're about to post makes you think 'this might get the thread locked', you keep it to yourself so we can have a productive discussion here?

I'm all for testing a variety of gun handling skills. Loading a magazine is a gun handling skill. It would be annoying to do it regularly, but I wouldn't mind it every once in a while.

I'm running a 'revo friendly' IDPA match in October and I'm thinking about the mason jar stage mentioned above. I'm only going to make it a 6 round stage. Both to avoid a speed bottleneck if we still get a lot of pistol shooters and to avoid beating people over the head with it.

[Loves2Shoot]

Twirling a gun on your finger is a gun handling skill akin to loading rounds into a magazine?

Yep, both are about as practical in my world, as I know how to keep my magazines loaded.

Just for kicks, it is about a second per round is what it took to load up my XDm mags, so I don't get why the 20 seconds spent loading my mags on the clock with 20 rounds would add to my match experience.

If I'm putting on a match, I would want to keep the stages within the requirements of the sport people who come are expecting to shoot. Personally, I am not a big fan of one stage being all the time and the rest really short to make up for it. A balanced match that measures a wide variety of skills with a balanced score weight is much more fun and equitable.

I'll shoot whatever is given to me, as once I'm there, that is what my job is once the match starts.

If someone ask if I think it is a good idea, I'll give my input, but that is where it ends for me.

[Chris Christian]

An ocasional "outside the box" stage... like the load the mag on the clock originally described... is not a bad thing. If it makes people think about something they haven't thought of before, then it may be more benificial to them in the long run than just another "blast three targets.... move to cover... and blast three more." I wouldn't have one every match. Just as I wouldn't have a 25-35 yard stage every match... or a standards stage. But, there is a place for them on a periodic basis. New thoughts... outside the box... is IMHO a valuable part of IDPA. I forget how many stages I've shot by opening a window, blasting a few targets, running to the end of the wall, and blasting a few more. Or, "dropping the pizza box" and blasting a few targets while retreating... or... well, you get the idea. I've forgotten them because they all ran together as the "same". The stages I remember most where the ones we didn't do every month. Something new, thought provoking, and kept me thinking after I did the Unload/Show Clear and left the line. I've seen some great non-standard stages that kept me, and other shooters at the two FL clubs I SO at thinking. If some shooters want to shoot by rote, that's fine. many others would rather be tested by new experiences.

Chris Christian

[jmorris]

I am primarily an idpa shooter but I shoot many different gun games.

Further I "game" everything. If I have to make and weld 1500 parts I do it "on the clock". If I can save 2 seconds on each part, I save almost an hour. Figuring out how to do everything in life better and faster should be a part in everyone's life, unless you really like Chinese products.

$.02

Edited June 28, 2010 by jmorris

[Steve Koski]

Twirling a gun on your finger is a gun handling skill akin to loading rounds into a magazine?

Yep, both are about as practical in my world, as I know how to keep my magazines loaded.

You also know how to keep your chamber loaded. Do you complain about empty gun starts?

[Loves2Shoot]

Twirling a gun on your finger is a gun handling skill akin to loading rounds into a magazine?

Yep, both are about as practical in my world, as I know how to keep my magazines loaded.

You also know how to keep your chamber loaded. Do you complain about empty gun starts?

No, because it is common to store loaded magazines in one location and the pistol in another. I'm not complaining but pointing out things that I consider quite obvious because the OP asked for opinions that he might have over looked. Having given his report, it is obvious that he did find the things I pointed prior to the match.

We regularly have junior shooters who do not load their magazines. I don't think my wife has ever loaded a magazine, but she knows what to do with a loaded magazines. There are shooters with disabilities who need assistance loading their magazines, and many more who use loading tools to load their magazines.

I think there are many chiming in on this thread who don't really care to look at how something might affect others who would choose to participate in IDPA. I'll call Robert Tuesday to see if I'm missing something, but their rulebook seems pretty clear since they go as far to say that folks who stray too far from their book suggestions SHOULD NOT be allowed to design stages for IDPA.

I'll shoot any safe stage put in front of me. I do have some experience with stages and do have an idea about how overlooking something that seems simple can really affect the overall match.

[Strick]

No, because it is common to store loaded magazines in one location and the pistol in another. I'm not complaining but pointing out things that I consider quite obvious because the OP asked for opinions that he might have over looked. Having given his report, it is obvious that he did find the things I pointed prior to the match.

We regularly have junior shooters who do not load their magazines. I don't think my wife has ever loaded a magazine, but she knows what to do with a loaded magazines. There are shooters with disabilities who need assistance loading their magazines, and many more who use loading tools to load their magazines.

I think there are many chiming in on this thread who don't really care to look at how something might affect others who would choose to participate in IDPA. I'll call Robert Tuesday to see if I'm missing something, but their rulebook seems pretty clear since they go as far to say that folks who stray too far from their book suggestions SHOULD NOT be allowed to design stages for IDPA.

I'll shoot any safe stage put in front of me. I do have some experience with stages and do have an idea about how overlooking something that seems simple can really affect the overall match.

Very well stated.

I am glad I refrained from making the post I was going to make since that would have resulted in butthurtedness and thread locking because this post hits the nail on the head.

[jmorris]

I'll shoot any safe stage put in front of me. I do have some experience with stages and do have an idea about how overlooking something that seems simple can really affect the overall match.

I’ll throw this out at this point.

I was blessed enough to have the time to assist in setting up a few stages they designed at MVSA’s last regional match. It was “disaster” type stages, nothing that we are “likely” to see but included a bunch of really challenging and fun stages. One that was in the Tactical Journal (I think) was a stage that had the shooter going back and forth on a half pipe sitting in a chair engaging targets (I even helped a little bit in the setup of this one). While fun, it didn’t have a lot of “practical” application, unless you are a guy sitting on the back of a boat in high seas and need to pick off a BG. I think two fell from the position so “safe” is arguable too but someone thought enough about the stage innovation to include it into the national publication.

(real life on) I guess if you can’t think outside the box you might just find yourself in one (real life off). My local club encourages all members to be MD’s, to the point of gift certificates in the $50 range by drawing every two months. It is this diversity that is a key to all of our members doing well when shooting matches all over the country. If you have “done it before” nothing will throw you a curve ball at any match. If you walk up and think "I don't know if I can do this"....well, those that say they can and those that say they can't are both right.

[Steve Koski]

L2S: I look forward to Robert Ray's response. Please post it here. I'm sure he'll stray far beyond the rule book to make sure the lame and the halt aren't disadvantaged.