Loading Magazines Under the clock

[Strick]

L2S: I look forward to Robert Ray's response. Please post it here. I'm sure he'll stray far beyond the rule book to make sure the lame and the halt aren't disadvantaged.

That sounds like a whine.

[rvb]

If you can chew gum and load mags at the same time, what's the problem? Everybody else is shooting the same COF under the same rules.

From pg 51 of the rule book:

One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course

design is “Well, it is the same for everyone”. Please do not use the

phrase “it is the same for everyone,” to use stages that trivialize the

purpose of IDPA or that are not really practical. Claiming that it

will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor

stage or course of fire. Anyone using the line “it is the same for

everyone” to justify a tactically unsound stage should not be

allowed to run or design any stages of fire in IDPA. Mistakes will

be made in IDPA, but allowing poor course designs to flourish will

lead to the demise of IDPA quicker than any other factor.

...there will always be a whiner, or two. I think we've met some here.

sticks and stones....

-rvb

[rvb]

You also know how to keep your chamber loaded. Do you complain about empty gun starts?

do I like them? no.

do I complain? just a little.

-rvb

[jmorris]

From pg 51 of the rule book:

One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course

design is “Well, it is the same for everyone”. Please do not use the

phrase “it is the same for everyone,” to use stages that trivialize the

purpose of IDPA or that are not really practical. Claiming that it

will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor

stage or course of fire. Anyone using the line “it is the same for

everyone” to justify a tactically unsound stage should not be

allowed to run or design any stages of fire in IDPA. Mistakes will

be made in IDPA, but allowing poor course designs to flourish will

lead to the demise of IDPA quicker than any other factor.

I could right this as, “The situations you put yourself, or find yourself in, in life are not predictable but we cannot expect everyone that plays IDPA to adapt to the challenge. If you can’t and have “clout” the rules might can change but if that is not you, you might wind up posting your disgust on an internet forum.

Ambiguity makes IDPA fluid and the rule book thin.

I find it hard to believe that there are people that find loading a firearm “impractical”. I have never went to any store and purchased ammunition already in the magazine. Have any of you guys ever shot 3 gun, where you had to eject shot rounds out of the gun and reload with slugs “on the clock”?

[Strick]

I could right this as, “The situations you put yourself, or find yourself in, in life are not predictable but we cannot expect everyone that plays IDPA to adapt to the challenge. If you can’t and have “clout” the rules might can change but if that is not you, you might wind up posting your disgust on an internet forum.

So the people that think mag loading is not some super natural skill, and needs should be timed in a COF, are just people that can't shoot? That is an interesting leap of logic.

I have shot plenty and even won a few real stupid stages. The fact that I was able to shoot the stage well does not change the fact the it was stupid. And winning a stage where you can load a mag faster than someone else is a pretty hollow victory in a SHOOTING match.

[jmorris]

So the people that think mag loading is not some super natural skill, and needs should be timed in a COF, are just people that can't shoot? That is an interesting leap of logic.

I have shot plenty and even won a few real stupid stages. The fact that I was able to shoot the stage well does not change the fact the it was stupid. And winning a stage where you can load a mag faster than someone else is a pretty hollow victory in a SHOOTING match.

I don’t think it is some “super natural” skill that you have to have but it is every bit as practical as knowing how to make your gun work (another topic but should be learned by many playing the game).

When I was a kid and couldn’t load the magazine on my 22 pistol I learned to use a key ring to pull down on the button, had I not learned that “skill” I would have been better off with a single shot or my 22 revolver.

To clarify I would never have put the stage in a sanctioned match and only did it once for a well advertised “revolver” match. If you don’t know what you can do, that seems like a bad thing to me.

[rvb]

From pg 51 of the rule book:

One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course

design is “Well, it is the same for everyone”.

I could right [write?] this as, “The situations you put yourself, or find yourself in, in life are not predictable but we cannot expect everyone that plays IDPA to adapt to the challenge.

I don't follow, are you saying you would reword the rule book to make people adapt to the stage challenge regardless? We can only work under the book we have now. If you can honestly justify it as "practical and realistic" [also from the rule book], then ok. If it can only be justified as "it's the same for everyone," then that is not ok.

I find it hard to believe that there are people that find loading a firearm “impractical”. I have never went to any store and purchased ammunition already in the magazine.

So where do we draw that line? You could set up a dillon on a stage, too, with a similar scenario. You don't own enough ammo to keep a gun loaded until you go back to the store?

Have any of you guys ever shot 3 gun, where you had to eject shot rounds out of the gun and reload with slugs “on the clock”?

when legal idpa targets require different ammo to score, and handgun ammo is available in such a wide variety of vastly different types of "full charge service ammunition" [also from the rule book], then that will become a valid comparison.

look, please don't take it personal. I don't. I just disagree that loading mags is "practical." Like I said, you might as well time me putting on my belt how I see it.

we'll just have to agree to disagree. if I ever shoot one of your mag loading stages, I promise to take my FTDR like a man.

-rvb

[Loves2Shoot]

L2S: I look forward to Robert Ray's response. Please post it here. I'm sure he'll stray far beyond the rule book to make sure the lame and the halt aren't disadvantaged.

That sounds like a whine.

Agreed, and I'll post the reply as soon as I can speak with him. That Steve thinks it necessary to insult my wife, friends, and fellow shooting enthusiasts just is sad.

The rulebook seems to cover everything in this thread though.

IDPA Rulebook page 12 (course of fire): CoF 5. Avoid designing courses of fire that will substantially disadvantage senior and mobility-challenged shooters.

page 41: NOTE: HQ urges course designers to draft scenario courses that do not require tac-loads or reloads with retention to be performed “on the clock”.

page 59: If your course of fire sounds great when you design it at home, try it on the range to make sure that it is simple and easy to administer.Complexity is bad in any course or stage of fire. When you try a stage of fire or match event on your shooting friends and they screw it up, that is a real clue that the average shooter that shows up to your monthly match is going to be in trouble.

Jmorris,

There are a lot of good skills to have that are not part of the IDPA game. I can have a loaded magazine when I go to buy ammo and have plenty of magazines to keep loaded while I load more as they are cheap and plentiful.

[Duane Thomas]

I don't get the game A vs game B stuff...

Especially since it's specifically verboten according to the Forum Guidelines. I guess this is what I get for reopening a thread, and giving people credit for respecting Brian's wishes in such areas when respondents to the thread have already proven that they don't.

Closed.

[Flexmoney]

How about if something you're about to post makes you think 'this might get the thread locked', you keep it to yourself so we can have a productive discussion here?

Big +1

That...or expect to get suspended. We (moderators) don't need the hassle to baby sit.

And, for those that might be curious on how the Forum Administrator views things... I really take a dim view of anybody calling somebody else a "whiner"...especially when, ironically enough, they are whining about it online.

I (we) may clean this thread out. If a post you made disappears, it was caught up in the sweep (it may not have been in violation of the rules, it just may be out of context after other posts are deleted).

Kyle F.

Forum Administrator