Loading Magazines Under the clock

[Steve Koski]

Have you ever looked at local match scores? Say the winner has a total time of 150 seconds. The longest 20% of the times are going to be in the 500-700 second range. That's pretty damned wide already! Who cares if there's another 10 seconds in the spread?

Are you afraid of hurting peoples feelings that can't load and fire a gun with speed and dexterity? Maybe you should be concerned about stages with 20+ yard targets too, and the psychological harm it will cause to those with poor eyesight, or bad trigger control? Think of the children!

Believe it or not, loading a magazine is a gun handling skill. It doesn't hurt to test it on occasion.

[Steve Koski]

IDPA COF Background: You're at a friend's house unarmed, someone starts kicking the door in, your friend says he has a gun in the bedroom. You find it in a drawer, unloaded, with a box of ammo next to it.

Whew, that was tough!!!

I don't think I said that you couldn't make up a story to explain away any type of goofy crap you want a shooter to do.

"you are in a gun fight and the attacker shot your weak hand and the first 3 fingers off your strong hand. Engage T1-T9 using your stronghand only but you may only use your thumb and pinky".

I have been unarmed many times in houses where there are guns, but not loaded magazines. Has this ever happened to you?

[Loves2Shoot]

Have you ever looked at local match scores? Say the winner has a total time of 150 seconds. The longest 20% of the times are going to be in the 500-700 second range. That's pretty damned wide already! Who cares if there's another 10 seconds in the spread?

Are you afraid of hurting peoples feelings that can't load and fire a gun with speed and dexterity? Maybe you should be concerned about stages with 20+ yard targets too, and the psychological harm it will cause to those with poor eyesight, or bad trigger control? Think of the children!

Believe it or not, loading a magazine is a gun handling skill. It doesn't hurt to test it on occasion.

Twirling a pistol is a gun handling skill, believe it or not.

The IDPA rulebook discourages even doing RWR "on the clock"

"Slide Lock reloads are the recommended type of reload in IDPA.

Statistics show that this happens in the real world, regardless of

intention or training. Tactical reloads and reloads with retention

are intended for use during lulls in the action and should not be

required on the clock."

Since they assert Tac loads and RWR's should be done off the clock, I can't see them thinking having to load the mags on the clock as a good idea.

The rulebook also clearly address the point I illustrated:

Often we hear of match designers who like to make their courses

or stages unusual to the point that they appear silly. Some of these

are simple modifications of cowboy match stages that require

contestants to ride rocking horses and shoot targets after walking

through swinging saloon doors. Sometimes these stages are called

silly names like “Revenge of the Green Men from Mars”. Such

mindless scenarios simply degrade what IDPA is about. Please

keep IDPA true to its practical roots.

One of the most commonly heard statements about poor course

design is “Well, it is the same for everyone”. Please do not use the

phrase “it is the same for everyone,” to use stages that trivialize the

purpose of IDPA or that are not really practical. Claiming that it

will be the same for everyone is a lame way of rationalizing a poor

stage or course of fire. Anyone using the line “it is the same for

everyone” to justify a tactically unsound stage should not be

allowed to run or design any stages of fire in IDPA. Mistakes will

be made in IDPA, but allowing poor course designs to flourish will

lead to the demise of IDPA quicker than any other factor.

Well-designed courses of fire should have the following

attributes:

• They should test skills relevant to self-defense situations.

• The sequence of target engagement should be obvious to the

shooter without extensive briefing or instruction.

• Assessment of procedural penalties because the shooter failed

to understand the course of fire should be very rare.

Procedural penalties will rarely be assessed on stages exhibiting

good course design.

IF you choose to read the rulebook, IDPA's opinion should be very clear.

My opinion has nothing to do with people "feelings" just customer satisfaction, as without it, people stop showing up.

I'll assert that if you are designing a stage to "get" folks (anyone who has shot a bunch knows what I mean) then you should try harder and make a good stage for everyone's sake.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Loves2Shoot

[sanman]

I am in Scott's camp on this one, all the way.

Sandy

[Nik Habicht]

I'm between camps on this one --- I've shot stages like this at decent matches, and I remember them fondly. They were however well designed -- typically being very short stages: 4-6 rounds max, so that even a revolver shooter wouldn't have to load more than once....

[BillD]

I shot an IDPA match a few years ago where the MD decided on one stage that everyone would start with their gun in pieces, following the "I was cleaning my gun" theme.

The idea was to assemble the gun, load it and then start. We had about 30 shooters, about 1/3 needed a bushing wrench to put their gun together, which was not allowed.

We talked the guy out of it and just did an unloaded table start.

I don't know about you fellas, but, on the rare occasions I clean a gun, I've got another loaded gun close by, usually in my pocket.

[Strick]

I shot an IDPA match a few years ago where the MD decided on one stage that everyone would start with their gun in pieces, following the "I was cleaning my gun" theme.

The idea was to assemble the gun, load it and then start. We had about 30 shooters, about 1/3 needed a bushing wrench to put their gun together, which was not allowed.

Yeah that is what you want, a bunch of shooters rushing to put a gun together. Seems a good way to have one of them forget something and possibly hurt themselves.

[Loves2Shoot]

I'm between camps on this one --- I've shot stages like this at decent matches, and I remember them fondly. They were however well designed -- typically being very short stages: 4-6 rounds max, so that even a revolver shooter wouldn't have to load more than once....

I've seen this type of stage done well and safely. IE, grab the "stage" revolver out of the box load 6 rounds and shoot 3 arms length targets and then go get your gun and finish the stage.

There are way to do things that are fair and reasonable. That is why I think it is important to test stages and make sure they don't become match killers just for the sake of doing something different.

Anyone here enjoy sitting for hours backed in front of a poorly managed/designed stage?

Good stage design and management is crucial to getting people to participate in this "for fun" shooting activity.

[Duane Thomas]

You're at a friend's house unarmed

Does not compute. What is this "unarmed" state of which you speak?

I have been unarmed many times in houses where there are guns, but not loaded magazines. Has this ever happened to you?

No.

[Duane Thomas]

I remember shooting a stage years ago that was put together by a diehard revolver shooter - not an IDPA match thankfully, this was more Joe-DPA where you've got one guy donating his time to run a match for people at a local shooting range, designing all the stages himself, MDing, etc. Which I thought was a really cool thing for him to do. Anyway, you start with your gun, action closed, on the shooting bench in front of you, completely unloaded, all the ammo is also on the bench but (and here's the biggie) if you're running a revolver you can have your ammo in speedloaders, if you're running an autoloader you have to have the rounds just loose, out of the magazine.

There are three strings to the stage. The target is a single "blue bottle" at seven yards. String 1, load the gun with six rounds, fire six shots on target in 30 seconds. String 2, same thing in 20 seconds. String 3, same thing in 10 seconds. And oh, this guy is just chortling. "There's no way auto pistol shooters are going to be able to do this. See, sometimes revolvers are better than auto pistols, because you can load them with speedloaders."

Ooooo-kay.

Oh, by the way, a hit in the bottle counts for 10 points, for anything outside the bottle, and any shots not fired because you run out of time, you get zero points. Oh, he's really going to nail those auto pistol shooters. Revenge of the Revolver, baby!

So, String 1, I've got my gun laid out, my magazine right where it needs to be, my six rounds in a line on the bench with enough space between them I won't accidentally knock one of them over and have to pick it up. Of course at 30 seconds we could all fire the first five rounds, go have a cup of coffee, come back and finish the stage and still have time left over but I'm looking at Strings 1 and 2 as him giving me two free practice runs for String 3 - which I thought was AWFULLY nice of him.

Beep! Load six rounds into the mag, grab the gun, speedload, rack the slide, fire six hits into the bottle. Watch the paint fade on the wall. Send out for pizza. Wonder what really happend before the Big Bang. Develop a Universal Field Theory. Wonder who invented non-alcoholic beer and why. Take a nap. Beep! Okay, we're done with String 1.

String 2, do the same thing, still plenty of time.

Now we're ready for String 3. I might mention in passing, the MD is AMAZED that I've been able to pass Strings 1 and 2 with 12 hits. "But there's no way you'll pass the 10 second run." He is absolutely certain of this. He makes this statement with religious conviction. There is no doubt in his mind.

Okay, String 3. I've got everything laid out, got a LOT of space between the rounds now, because I know if I do knock one of them over and have to fumble for it I won't make the time. I'm gonna have to hustle on this one. Beep! Grab the mag, round 1, round 2, round 3, down the table, round 4, round 5, round 6, grab the gun, speedload, rip the slide, get the gun on target, bangbangbangbangbangbang, six good hits. Beep! I look over at the MD who, strangely enough, was watching me do that, grin at him. He looks like I've just poleaxed him. I truly cannot begin to express how stunned he looks, like I just beat him up and took his lunch money. "I can't believe you just did that," he says.

So after the match we're standing around talking and he tells me, "I was just trying to make the point that automatics aren't really faster to load than revolvers if you have to start with loose rounds for the automatic." I really didn't know what to say to that. "Well....yeah....if I ever....decide to walk around with....a pocketful of loose rounds as spare ammo for my auto pistol....instead of two loaded spare mags in a double mag pouch....that could be important info to have....I guess."

Oy.

[Chris Christian]

I will agree with some of the posters on this thread that overly-creative MDs can sometimes create stages that are not suitable for the skill levels of all competitors at a IDPA club match. There have been a few times, on the SO walk through, where I have mentioned (sometimes forcefully, but a CSO gets to do that) to the MD that this might be a nice stage for a Super Squad, but may create an unsafe situation for the UNC, Novice, and even Marksman class shooters. With that said... loading a magazine on the clock is a problem? It hardly seems an unsafe action, and it may be an eye opener for some. "Eye Openers" are not necessarily a bad thing in IDPA. I designed one stage that was Limited... three targets... 35, 25 and 15 yards, requiring three shots each ( I did that knowing I would be shooting SSR that match and would obviously have to make a reload that the 9 & 11 shooters wouldn't have to make). There were a number of shooters, after the match, that told me they figured they needed to practice at those longer ranges because they never felt the need to, hadn't done so, didn't even know where their guns hit at those ranges, but this did "open their eyes". Is that a bad thing?

This is where I'll get into trouble (might even get another suspension).... but IMHO... true competitors look at a stage... it's requirements... and figure out a plan of action that can help them win it. The "Also Rans" and "Wannabees" are the ones whining "It's not Real Life"... It's not in the Rule Book" "It's too hard"... "It's unfair"...yadda, yadda, yadda. There isn't an SO out there ( and I am one) that hasn't heard this line of serious whining before.

I will say this, IMHO, you can instantly separate the real competitors from the "Wannabees" by just listening to how much they bitch about a stage.

I did my best to keep this non-antagonistic... but it is my opinion.. based upon about five years of IDPA matches from the National level all the way down to the local club level.

Chris Christian

[Duane Thomas]

The OP's question has already been definitively answered and we seem poised to go places we really don't need to be going, so I'm going to close this down. If anyone has anything of substance to add, shoot me a PM and I'll consider reopening it.

In the meantime, we might all ask ourselves, if we think something we "need to say" violates the rules of civil discourse on this board to the point we might get suspended....why post it? Do we really need to say it here?

[Duane Thomas]

Thread reopened per HK45 Lefty's request since he actually does have some good info to share. Perhaps we can post with a bit more restraint this time.

[Ty Hamby]

Thanks Duane for letting me update this thread.

Well after a shooting the stage today It went well. I do have a couple of tweaks that it needs. One that nobody here mentioned. "Concealment required" It was 100 degrees today and who wears concealment on a 100 degree day in their garage. That needs to be removed for next time.

The only other criticism this stage got was that people were getting to cover before the poppers were even engaged and that they thought it would work better if there was more space between the bench and backing up to the cover wall.

Loading of magazines ranged from 11-20 rounds and some split their reloads between the two magazines and some loaded one all the way up and the second with just one or two. The time to load ranged from 22 seconds by out expert shooters to 35 seconds by our new shooters. The time to load magazines was pretty consistent with the shooters usual scores. The overall scores on the day reflected everyone’s usual overall position. While some flubbed the stage that happens to us all at some point. One person got 2 loads into their mag before I told them they were in backwards and they quickly unloaded and tried again. Most everyone commented that they had no idea that loading took so long or that it was that difficult under stress. I myself left a loaded mag on the table as I was stressing to get to shooting. I picked it up before leaving the table though. Hope I don’t leave it there in real world. I really appreciated all the comments. Some of you commented that this stage was a poor design or that it looked like a bottle neck. The stage was setup in a bay with 2 other stages. The other stages were short and sweet so it was not a bottle neck under this type of setup. If your club has single stages in single bays then it could be a bottleneck if you also have short and sweet stages that same day. Overall time on this stage averaged 40-70 seconds. Try it out or something similar. We had very senior shooters do really well at it while young gamers’ fumbled. Feel free to PM me with any advice that has not already been posted as Im always open to constructive criticism.

[RobMoore]

I've got one that is "or similar": retrieving a pistol from a locked box with a little key

That is one I've done, and some people did it smooth, others struggled under pressure to perform the simple task we all use every day.

[Shibby]

I agree with Scott. I don't think it adds anything to the match and it gets away from why I came to the match, to shoot.

[RobMoore]

This discussion reminds me a little of the TopShot episode with the longbow.

"I'm a freakin' IPSC Grand Master and I'm going to get taken out because of a bow and arrow?" (Paraphrased)

[Ty Hamby]

I agree with Scott. I don't think it adds anything to the match and it gets away from why I came to the match, to shoot.

I think we all have to remember that we all come to a match for different reasons. Some come for the game. Some come to hone self defense techniques. Some come to work on controlling stress in a stressful environment. I think the 3rd reason in mine. I believe for myself that when faced with a real life crisis I’m not going to rise to the occasion but fall back on my stress management/training. Real world I don’t believe an expert shooter has any significant advantage over a marksman in regards to surviving the day if you only know how to shoot after a beep. I’m reminded of one of my first match being an SO. An expert shooter just stood there after the beep because I failed to say "Standby". He stood there on the clock and said you forgot to say standby. Silly? I got positive feedback from everyone in this thread. I designed a stage that I felt dealt with survival training that I’ve never done in my 2 years of IDPA. I want to be good at everything. Those that just come for the game I can understand why this stage might be frustrating. It is a gotcha stage. I enjoyed having an opportunity to try this under a clock and use it as a learning experience.

IBTL

[Chris Christian]

+1 to Ty. Those who compete will look at the COF requirements and figure out how to do their best at them. And, they may learn something from it. Others may just whine.... "To hard"... Not in the Rule Book"... "Didn't practice that"... "Didn't know you were going to do that"... "It's not fair!". I've heard it all; will likely hear it again; don't care to. IDPA is a COMPETITIVE PISTOL MATCH... not Real Life. If you came to compete, then deal with the COF you're confronted with.

Chris Christian

[TerryO]

We had a simular stage at a local match a couple of years ago. It was 18 degrees and the ammo was in a stainless steel bowl and you were laying on your back at standby. Do you know how hard it is to load a mag when your fingers are stiff with cold and you're on the timer? Can't say I like stages like that but it was the same for everyone.

[Steve Koski]

Twirling a gun on your finger is a gun handling skill akin to loading rounds into a magazine?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Steve Koski

[Steve Koski]

You're at a friend's house unarmed

Does not compute. What is this "unarmed" state of which you speak?

I have been unarmed many times in houses where there are guns, but not loaded magazines. Has this ever happened to you?

No.

"Unarmed" for the purpose of this discussion means don't have a gun on you. But you knew that.

You know for a fact that every time you haven't had a gun on, that the magazines for potential gun everywhere you went were already loaded for you?

You've never been to "carry free states," obeyed the law, and visited family who have guns, but don't keep them ready?

Edited June 27, 2010 by Steve Koski

[Duane Thomas]

Except for rare occasions when I have no choice but to go into a court house which has a metal detector - when recently renewing my CCW, for instance - I don't go places that require me to be unarmed. I pretty much come with a gun - and two spare loaded mags - attached. No assembly required.

[Duane Thomas]

Guys, PLEASE cool it on the "real world versus match shooting" stuff. Please reread the Forum Guidelines. Thanks.

[Model19]

I look at stages as problems to be solved. Having the occasional "think out of the box" stage is OK by me, as long as it is not too far fetched. In this case I don't see it as far fetched. It's certainly not an everyday situation, but it's not the "green men from mars" level of irrelevance.

At my club, throwing in an occasional stage like this is welcome. It breaks up the game and presents a new challenge.

And of course the stage Duane related was just plain old bad. A stage designers personal bias should never enter into the picture like that. And I'm primarily a Revo guy too