JFD Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 At my local club Limited 10 is a class that's either full of beginners or maybe someone with their racegun in the shop. I can trounce the regular L-10 shooters and just compare myself to Limited shooters to make sure my ego is properly adjusted. I love my single stack 1911 and the .45 auto and have no urge and little of the cash needed to upgrade to Limited. However the lack of competition has me thinking of somehow getting equipped to shoot Limited. Is this a typical L-10 situation or just an isolated local issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Capizzo Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I think at least some of this depends on the local club. At a club where the shooters are more competition oriented, they probably already own equipment for Limited and only shoot L-10 for diversion or to have a better opportunity to win something (even if its just recognition). At clubs with more casual shooters, as you said, there will be a group of people that are shooting L10 because thats what they own already and they don't have to spend anything more to compete. I get frustrated seeing Area matches with 300+ shooters and 12 people in L-10. But at least we're not revolver shooters, that would really make me nuts! You go to an Area match and get to shoot against TWO other people! Oh well, nothing preventing anyone from switching divisions if we're inclined. While we're at it, I understand why L-10 equipment rules are what they are, but I wish it was a Single Stack Div. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Our local top shooters regularly switch between L10 and Limited. And, there is some really good competition in that division around here - so I think it's a local phenomenon for you. I'd tell you to move here, but here sucks for tons of other reasons :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBneACP Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I think it strictly depends on the area. I've seen local matches wth more than 50% L-10. Realistically, L-10 is the direction the sport needs to go. Among new shooters and the IDPA crossovers (of which there are more and more), there is less and less interest in hi-caps. And while we're in a political lull right now, none of us who are on the front lines believes for a minute that the capacity issue is going to dry up and blow away. My take has been that the industry has been slow to support the new division (as opposed to Production) because they've been burned before; they are, however, finally coming around. I think the Factory Nationals could be a real watershed for L-10/// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted May 9, 2002 Author Share Posted May 9, 2002 Thanks folks. I'm sure it's just a local issue, but I had anticipated more IDPA shooters showing up if for nothing more than the higher round count. My guess would have been that most would be shooting L-10 or Production. I'm thinking of switching to Limited with the equipment I have now just to feel like I'm in a competition. I'm not too thrilled about having no chance for winning when competing against hi-cap mags though. Maybe interest in L-10/Production will pick up before too long. It seems perfect to me since IDPA guns can come as-is and all that's needed are a few more mags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 The past two matches I went to a L-10 shooter won high overall. Of course there were only a hand full of open shooters there that gave him any compitition. And you can see him here on the board every once and a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 JFD: We have exactly the same issue at both of the clubs where I shoot. It's really simple. The more experienced and competitive shooters got geared up before L10 came along. The newer shooters are showing up with single stacks and production guns. Give it a few years and I think L10 might even be more cometitive than Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 Boy can I relate to what you experienced. I like shooting a single stack 1911 in L10. I do ok for a beginner. I went immediately to C class, my last qualifier was at 65%. The RO said, you a pretty good shooter but you really need to get a high capacity gun so you can compete in Limited. Some of our Limited folks are now starting to shoot L10 on alternating matches. It is making for a lot of fun. For me, it is just being practical, a single stack .45 L10 keeps me out of the equipment race wars. I pay $25 for a mag v. $80 to $100. My ammo is $150/1000-I buy, cannot reload. Basically, I am happy in L10. It seems like a purist division, very basic equipment, although I hate to bring it up, but it is more like using the same equipment as in a combat situation. But I am an old geezer who is rather retro oriented anyway. Personally, I am glad to see people in L10 and the Production classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 We've got almost as many L-10 shooters as Limited shooters in our matches, with Production coming on fast!? (L, L-10 & Pro combined averaged 83% of our match attendance in the last quarter) Open is the province of hard-core oldtimers, and Revolver is the area for shooters like me who simply must shoot everything at one time or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I put the open gun away until after the factory gun Area 8. 10 round mags suck on field courses. The biggest drawback of production is the lack of competition. Last match out of 64 shooters 6 of us shot production. It is still running mainly open and limited here. There are a few L10 and even fewer production shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I'm shooting L10 mostly out of necessity. When I started this sport two years ago I was the only one playing with a skinny gun. Slowly newer shooters have shown up and are playing with me, however the fatso's still dominate our clubs. I think the last couple of matches I shot at there were 4-5 L10'ers. I would shoot I fat gun if I could do it right, but for now I'm just happy playing. Not that I've added anything to this discussion, simply my two cents... $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted May 17, 2002 Author Share Posted May 17, 2002 I'm probably going to start shooting IDPA again as an excuse to use my .38 Super without getting murdered by the minor power factor. While there maybe I can get more people interested in giving L-10 and Production a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 Quote: from JFD on 12:31 pm on May 17, 2002 I'm probably going to start shooting IDPA again as an excuse to use my .38 Super without getting murdered by the minor power factor. While there maybe I can get more people interested in giving L-10 and Production a try. One of my fantasies is to get a hold of a super or 9mm 1911 for a few weeks and just concentrate on picking up some speed. I shoot with a couple of guys who blast with the limited guys shooting a glock 17, and a 19, and really it's impressive how fast they can go. Just an experiment, I think you have to shoot major to really compete. two more cents ($0.02 + $0.02 = $0.04) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted May 18, 2002 Author Share Posted May 18, 2002 I agree with having to shoot major in USPSA, but it's not an issue shooting ESP in IDPA. I dearly love my .38 Super but gave up any ideas of shooting minor in USPSA. IDPA is perfect for it even if I have to remove my extended mag release and deal with uncomfortable reloads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 At the recent Area One Championships we had, if memory serves me correctly, 44 Lim-10 shooters. True, that doesn't compare to 120-plus Open shooters and 110-plus Limited shooters, but for a division a little over a year old it was pretty impressive. At local matches (Washington state) I'm seeing Lim-10 as much more popular than that. Depending on the match it will be about as popular as Limited and either slightly or greatly more popular than Open. Of course I'll be the first to admit that might a regional phenomenon. For some socio/political reason I don't quite understand, the singlestack 1911 .45 auto is a VERY popular self-defense carry gun in Washington state. When I attended a class here taught by John Farnum, he looked at his students and said, "God, I haven't seen this many cocked and locked .45s in once place since the last time I went to Gunsite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 Quote: from Duane Thomas on 7:57 pm on May 20, 2002 Of course I'll be the first to admit that might a regional phenomenon. For some socio/political reason I don't quite understand, the singlestack 1911 .45 auto is a VERY popular self-defense carry gun in Washington state. When I attended a class here taught by John Farnum, he looked at his students and said, "God, I haven't seen this many cocked and locked .45s in once place since the last time I went to Gunsite." It's just because we're *manly* men here in Washington. Really, it's probably due a lot in part to the promotion given to the 1911 here with NW Single Stack classic. I see 4-5 guys with their "No Yuppie Guns" hats on every match. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted May 21, 2002 Share Posted May 21, 2002 "Or the last time he was in Detroit." L-10 is very popular here, and I suspect there is a simple reason you see more L-10 at clubs than at big matches: The USPSA members with more time in go to big matches. They are more likely to have, or invest in, Limited or Open guns. The swarm of L-10 shooters at the club level just haven't gotten enough time in to rise to the level of State, Area or National matches. They will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted May 22, 2002 Share Posted May 22, 2002 It may also be partially because there's a LONG historyof IPSC in Washington state. I've been told the Renton IPSC club is one of the oldest in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave pasos Posted May 30, 2002 Share Posted May 30, 2002 In states where there is a 10rd limit on new guns L-10 is perfect! For USPSA to grow in these states that is the only option new shooter have. Of course you can buy replacement mags but not everyone is willing to bend or break the law just to assembly a mag. Besides what has happened to this sport? We talk about the techniques on shooting faster and seeing faster but what about the reloading techniques and the strategies used to shooting a stage with a L10 or prduction gun? Are we buying ours scores by getting a gun with most bullets? I can see both sides of the debate but wait until your state puts a ban on selling hi caps! I hope it doesnt get to that. For this sport to grow L10 and prod. is what this sport needs. With the cost of hi cap guns and everything else you need along with mags this sport is going to out price itself for alot of new members Iam tried of spending 75 dollars and up on mags. Its insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBneACP Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I tend to agree with Dave P. I suspect we're close to "maxing out" potential Limited shooters because of the magazine issue (which is, I have contended for years, much larger and more damaging to us than we choose to acknowledge). Right now, we're in a political lull...we've gotten pretty much everything we've asked for from Santa. Don't have any illusions that the gun banners are going to go away! The hi-cap issue is one of the few politically "safe" anti-gun issues left on the table. I figure we're likely to see more of it in the not too distant future. The magazine issue includes other aspects than strict legality...It's more of a pain in the butt to keep 'em running good, which, again, is more of a barrier to new shooters than we like to acknowledge. When I started shooting Limited, the mags were the biggest obstacle. Since I went exclusively to L-10, my life got simpler, which means my shooting got better. I've heard the "move up" argument for years, and I see Open, for all intents and purposes, dying out. Where are the shooters "moving up" from Limited to Open? There's not enough move ups to replace the drop outs. I'm interested in seeing the results of the Factory Nationals, whether the downloaded modular Limited guns are superior to single stacks. They are more ergonomic, to be sure. An STI Edge in .40 is the easiest gun I ever instructred with...the students loved it to death. Interestingly enough, at the San Fran NSSF Media seminar last week, the hands-down winner in the students' (who had never touched a gun) favorite gun sweepstakes was a 9mm Para LDA double-stack fitted with 10-round mags (the gun was designed and made after the Ban; there are no high caps available for it). Everybody shot this gun substantially better than our huge assortment of other hardware, including the full complement of H-Ks, Glocks & 1911s... Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Yo Mike, One thing a wise old sage (not you!), once taught me is to never adopt the terminology used by your opponents, because you only help perpetuate the myths they are trying to spread. A 17 round Glock magazine is not hi-capacity; it's standard capacity, and it always has been since day one. The 10 rounders you guys have in the US are under-capacity. That's all for now .......... as you were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBneACP Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Vince! I stand humbled and corrected! How about them 30-rounders that Chris E. has for his G-18? Over-capacity? Or is he just happy to see me... Your awed admirer... MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Well, now that you mention it, the 31 rounders are standard capacity for a Glock 18. And, if you've ever fired one, you know you need a big stick! BTW, if you see young Chris, give him a big bear hug and my best regards. He's always been one of my favorite guys. Well, except for that time a couple of years back when he lent me a Glock 17 with a 100lb trigger to demonstrate an "IPSC Speed Shoot" to a bunch of LEO's. I think they're still laughing (Edited by Vince Pinto at 5:21 am on June 4, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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