Enter the box with outside or inside foot first?

[seeds76]

Example: running from left to right, entering a box to your right.

Which foot do you first enter the box with, outside or inside? Or a better question might be how do you setup your footwork for entering boxes that produce the most stable and quickest way to get the shot off?

[boz1911]

My normal method when entering a box from L to R is to plant and turn my left foot just outside the box. The right foot will plant in the box and I'll begin shooting as my left foot lifts off the ground. Just the opposite when moving from R to L. A good example is about the 1:34 mark in the last video I have posted on youtube.

[Jake Di Vita]

It depends on what I'm shooting from the box. If I'm entering a box from the left to shoot at some fairly easy targets, my left foot will enter first so I can roll through the position. If I'm shooting at some fairly hard targets I'll enter the box with my right foot first so I can start getting on the sights quicker. By the time my left foot has left the ground I'm usually ready to shoot.

[Flexmoney]

You will get a variety of opinions, often because there are a variety of variables. I do believe, however, there is one tip-top shooter that advocates using the same foot no matter what, where or when. (I don't know that I agree, but he is so good at this aspect of the game that I'd keep my mind open.)

For me, the more fundamentals issues are to sluff of speed/momentum a few steps ahead of time so that you merely setup in the box in a manner that allows you to get to the shooting...and not be coming to a crash stop, hopping into position, pogo-sticking up and down, etc.

There are threads on this, to be found.

[AWLAZS]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29373&st=0&p=339411&hl=crossover%20and%20roll&fromsearch=1entry339411

Here is a good place to look

[XRe]

It depends on what I'm shooting from the box. If I'm entering a box from the left to shoot at some fairly easy targets, my left foot will enter first so I can roll through the position. If I'm shooting at some fairly hard targets I'll enter the box with my right foot first so I can start getting on the sights quicker. By the time my left foot has left the ground I'm usually ready to shoot.

This. And for exactly the same reasons....

[lugnut]

You will get a variety of opinions, often because there are a variety of variables. I do believe, however, there is one tip-top shooter that advocates using the same foot no matter what, where or when. (I don't know that I agree, but he is so good at this aspect of the game that I'd keep my mind open.)

For me, the more fundamentals issues are to sluff of speed/momentum a few steps ahead of time so that you merely setup in the box in a manner that allows you to get to the shooting...and not be coming to a crash stop, hopping into position, pogo-sticking up and down, etc.

I think I know who you are referring to as well. I've seen and had lessons from several top instructors that almost all have different ways of doing it. The most recent instructor said not to spend time taking tiny steps or spend time trying to figure out which foot to come in on (paraphrasing) but to stabilize as quick as possible... with the gun up!! I think the gun ready is almost more important IMO.

[TreblePlink]

This preference seems very mixed. I've trained with both Matt Burkett, and also with Max and Travis, and they teach opposite methods of box entry. Interesting because in almost all other respects their methods were almost exactly the same. I think what matters most is whichever you are most comfortable with - try both. I have personally decided that stepping in with the outside foot seems best.

[Jake Di Vita]

I have personally decided that stepping in with the outside foot seems best.

What does the timer say?

[TreblePlink]

On my limited experimentation with the timer - two boxes 15 feet apart, the variation (noise) was more significant than any trend I could spot. So at least for me, I can't tell that one is faster than another.

[XRe]

On my limited experimentation with the timer - two boxes 15 feet apart, the variation (noise) was more significant than any trend I could spot.

Not just distance, but on what kind of targets? Put an 8" plate at 25 yards (that's a 25 yard IPSC target with half-hardcover or half-noshoot coverage, BTW), and see which one is consistently better. Then try it with a wide open paper target at 5 yards. I consistently break shots faster by entering trail foot first, as you describe - but on more difficult shots, I consistently hit the target better, with better points, using the M2/TT method (which Burkett also teaches, BTW, as a way of getting into awkward positions and barricades, etc). So, on tighter, harder shots, I achieve a higher hit factor more consistently using the lead foot first method. I like the labels M2/TT use on their exits ("hard" for hard shots, "easy" for easy shots), and use them for labeling the entries, too - the trail foot first is "easy" (for easy targets - targets I can reliably shoot on the move) and "hard" (for the opposite).

Jake says "What does the timer say?", but his implication is actually what does the overall score say (he's assuming A-zones on your shots, not just a time to first shot upon entry)... If it takes you three shots to hit an A-zone (or that 8" plate I mentioned), or you incur a penalty (miss, no-shoot), that takes away all potential advantage to breaking that shot earlier (and then some...)

[Jake Di Vita]

Not just distance, but on what kind of targets? Put an 8" plate at 25 yards (that's a 25 yard IPSC target with half-hardcover or half-noshoot coverage, BTW), and see which one is consistently better. Then try it with a wide open paper target at 5 yards. I consistently break shots faster by entering trail foot first, as you describe - but on more difficult shots, I consistently hit the target better, with better points, using the M2/TT method (which Burkett also teaches, BTW, as a way of getting into awkward positions and barricades, etc). So, on tighter, harder shots, I achieve a higher hit factor more consistently using the lead foot first method. I like the labels M2/TT use on their exits ("hard" for hard shots, "easy" for easy shots), and use them for labeling the entries, too - the trail foot first is "easy" (for easy targets - targets I can reliably shoot on the move) and "hard" (for the opposite).

Jake says "What does the timer say?", but his implication is actually what does the overall score say (he's assuming A-zones on your shots, not just a time to first shot upon entry)... If it takes you three shots to hit an A-zone (or that 8" plate I mentioned), or you incur a penalty (miss, no-shoot), that takes away all potential advantage to breaking that shot earlier (and then some...)

Right.

The bottom line is "feel" is not a reliable indicator of time and time alone is not a reliable indicator of efficacy. I urge you to test it with as many variations as you can think of (as XRe said) and record the information along with the variables in your log book. You will then have concrete data on what does or doesn't work for you, and until you have the data any theory is just conjecture.

[lugnut]

Jake- I think testing which works best individually is a good idea- but sometimes as you probably know much better than myself- it may take considerable time to "perfect" a new way which may (or may not) offer better times. I've tested several ways but the "new" way is always awkward for quite a while and doesn't yield better times. I don't have enough time (maybe it's a cop out) to test all these things so I rely on professional advice- which in this case varies from instructor to instructor. Manny Bragg was a recent instructor that also told us - If you don't believe what he says prove it with a timer. I try to take lead from the best instructors since they have thousands of hours collectively in this- more than I could dream of doing. This is one of the very few cases where there is what I consider- significant differences in training. For the time being anyway- I'll pick what seems to work best and focus on the other things that all the instructors agree are important that I haven't mastered yet. That's my 2 cents.

[Aloha Robert]

Im dating my self, but Jerry Barnhart spent a LOT of time on this in his instructional videos from the 90's. In a nutshell, you should be able to do either depending on situation but the real pearl from Jerry is to coordinate the presentation of pistol with the setup. The presentation starts just before entering the box or whatever set up. The shot breaks as soon as the sights stabilize which should happen just about the time the second foot hits. This saves a lot of time and avoids the sight "bounce", sight dip or pogo stick as Flexmoney and others call it.Of course if its a hammer close shot, you can shoot as soon as the first foot hits. For special situations, the foot that is one closer to target, edge of box, or side of barricade should generally hit first. (although there are some gifted shooters where it just doesnt matter)

After a while the presentation, setup and foot work is the same whether it's box or any other (static) setup. Using the same consistant technique, after a while it just becomes habbit and you dont have to think about it. But first think about coordinating the presentation, that's where the time savings occur, more than which foot hits first.

Jake is right practice with timer and see.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[lugnut]

In a nutshell, you should be able to do either depending on situation but the real pearl from Jerry is to coordinate the presentation of pistol with the setup. The presentation starts just before entering the box or whatever set up. The shot breaks as soon as the sights stabilize which should happen just about the time the second foot hits. This saves a lot of time and avoids the sight "bounce", sight dip or pogo stick as Flexmoney and others call it.

I personally agree that the presentation is the single most important part... and everyone seems to agree with this. How many time to I get into a position/box and I'm not ready to shoot? Too many times.

[Corey]

hopefully soon ill have the ability to practice the two and see which is faster. Ive been practicing and using entering the a box with the "outside" foot. moving to the right, i plant my left foot on the outside of the box step in with my right while aligning the gun for next shot, lift the left foot in and start shooting. im gonna put the timer on myself both ways hopefully soon to see if one way is truly faster. it may depend on the shot difficulty more than anything, at least for me.

[Flexmoney]

What if your stance/position (your place in space) for any given shot doesn't originate from your feet, but from the place the gun needs to be to make the shot...?

Ghost Dog speaks: http://www.brianenos...h=1entry65441

[Sam]

Thank you for resurrecting that post Flex. There is some incredible content hidden in the ancient posts.

[Dancin Dan]

I almost always step in with the opposite foot (when moving to the right step in with the left). It seems to keep me from bouncing and allows me to keep moving through a box without stopping if need be.

[Jake Di Vita]

What if your stance/position (your place in space) for any given shot doesn't originate from your feet, but from the place the gun needs to be to make the shot...?

Now that is a very interesting way of looking at it.

I need time to soak that in.

[Supermoto]

For me, it depends on what direction I am going after the shots or have to open up to the shot.

If I am coming in and need to go left, I come in on my right leg and put very little weight on my left foot,

If the target is to the right, I don't want to come in on my right as I feel twisted up especially if I have to leave in that direction

If I am coming in square and need to set up for a hard shot, I will usually come in on my left foot as it feels more solid and I can settle sooner

If its a wall I have to shoot around, I come in with the outside leg forward to increase stability

What if your stance/position (your place in space) for any given shot doesn't originate from your feet, but from the place the gun needs to be to make the shot...?

I agree with this, your feet need to do what they need to do to make the shot.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Supermoto