Odd 9mm load situation - need help

[wmounts]

Shot at USPSA VAMD Sectional Match last week...

124 gr. Montana Gold JHP, 4.0 gr. Titegroup, 1.120 OAL, Temperature ~ 82F.

Chrono'd at 1200 fps! (average of 3 rounds)

Next day, temperature ~ 78F, had the chrono guy check a load for me (I was one of the match ROs),

same bullet, same OAL, 3.5gr. Titegroup

Chrono'd at 1113 fps. (average of 3 rounds)

This is significantly higher than "book" values or any loads seen on the 'net.

ETA: this was in a G17

Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks in advance!

[Outsydlooknin75]

Could it simply be variance in the powder?

I know with Varget in my bolt gun it can vary greatly from lot to lot.

[Sarge]

Those seem a little short. Are you comparing them to loads of the same oal?

They are certainly hot! 148 and 138 respectively. I ran MG 124's at area 6 that were 4.3 TG @1.14 that made 140 pf out of a G34.

Did they check their chrono?

[wmounts]

Those seem a little short. Are you comparing them to loads of the same oal?

They are certainly hot! 148 and 138 respectively. I ran MG 124's at area 6 that were 4.3 TG @1.14 that made 140 pf out of a G34.

Did they check their chrono?

I pulled that OAL & load from here, I believe (here = BE.com).

All of the other shooters in my squad seemed to be right on the money with their measured speed vs. their loads, ie, minor loads at ~ 131 - 136, major from ~169 through ~ 178.

So, I have no reason to believe that the chrono was faulty.

Maybe I need to lengthen the OAL?!

[TAP]

I have never seen velocities that high with so little TG. Kinda scary that the .5gr less didn't drop that much. I was about to order 8# of TG tonight after all my troubles with Solo but I want to hear more. I don't want to chase a load all over the place...again.

[millisec]

I'm a little perplexed by much the same... 4.0g by most recommendations should be about starting load. Figured this would put me around 130PF.

124gr Zero FMJ (really 125gr)

4.0 grains Titegroup

1.15 OAL

.375 taper crimp

Winchester SPP.

mixed brass

M&P 9 Pro

93F temps

I shot ~200 at a local USPSA match and there was no chrono (don't have one yet either). I had been shooting Win Ranger Nato that was chronoed at 1200 fps and there was no comparison. The titegroup loads were a lot more like a real +p - +p+ load. No signs of pressure at all. The rounds were quite accurate though when I could control it.

I had a newish 13# uncaptured ISMI spring that I settled on when shooting the ranger. I'm going to shoot an IDPA match this weekend and go back to a stock spring. I had tried a 15# ISMI with the ranger and had much the same effect with the gun jumping and went to the 13#.

Edited June 2, 2010 by millisec

[wmounts]

I'm a little perplexed by much the same... 4.0g by most recommendations should be about starting load. Figured this would put me around 130PF.

124gr Zero FMJ (really 125gr)

4.0 grains Titegroup

1.15 OAL

3.75 taper crimp

Winchester SPP.

mixed brass

M&P 9 Pro

93F temps

I shot ~200 at a local USPSA match and there was no chrono (don't have one yet either). I had been shooting Win Ranger Nato that was chronoed at 1200 fps and there was no comparison. The titegroup loads were a lot more like a real +p - +p+ load. No signs of pressure at all. The rounds were quite accurate though when I could control it.

I had a newish 13# uncaptured ISMI spring that I settled on when shooting the ranger. I'm going to shoot an IDPA match this weekend and go back to a stock spring. I had tried a 15# ISMI with the ranger and had much the same effect with the gun jumping and went to the 13#.

You don't know how relieved I am to hear your story. I thought I had gone bonkers.

[millisec]

FYI I think this is the batch number 1100209 228. I'm assuming thats October of last year. I had picked up a couple pounds locally to try out. Curious to hear what others have to say but I'll definitely cut the load next batch and when I use it up move on to another powder. A lot of people use it and recommend it but it's also one of the dirtiest loads I've ever shot. You can't hardly beat ~1750 rounds per pound, at 4gr, for the price though. This weekend will also likely be in the 90's so it should be interesting. I have heard that it is pretty temperature sensitive but mostly related to cold temps and not making PF. I have not really seen mention of what it does with hot temps. Supposedly it has a fairly high level of nitro which is what probably makes it so temp sensitive.

[blind bat]

I used to run 4.2gr w/ 124gr MGs in my CZ 75 @ 132-135pf. I'm too lazy to get off the couch and grab my notebook to get the exact numbers but 148pf is way too high. If it were S1000 I'd say it's probably just "lot to lot variation" but Titegroup is usually extremely consistent. I'd weigh and measure your bullets, if they check out OK you should call Hodgdon before someone blows something up.

[Sarge]

I used to run 4.2gr w/ 124gr MGs in my CZ 75 @ 132-135pf. I'm too lazy to get off the couch and grab my notebook to get the exact numbers but 148pf is way too high. If it were S1000 I'd say it's probably just "lot to lot variation" but Titegroup is usually extremely consistent. I'd weigh and measure your bullets, if they check out OK you should call Hodgdon before someone blows something up.

Yeah. Something is screwy. I never had too many issues using TG. It has always been good powder. +1 to weighing bullets. And getting ahold of Hodgdon.

[CocoBolo]

Sounds like you need to check your powder scale. That is exactly why I have an Electronic and a beam scale if something does not look right or just for peace of mind I check one against the other. They are always within a tenth. For me 4.3Gr of TG with a 124gr MTG RN makes 131pf at 85-90 degrees f.

[wmounts]

Sounds like you need to check your powder scale. That is exactly why I have an Electronic and a beam scale if something does not look right or just for peace of mind I check one against the other. They are always within a tenth. For me 4.3Gr of TG with a 124gr MTG RN makes 131pf at 85-90 degrees f.

I'll check the scale again tonight. It weighed 115, 124, 180, and 230 gr. bullets to within a .1 of a grain, though. Admittedly, 4.0 grains is way down the scale from those numbers, but...

I'm guessing a call to Hodgdon is going to be next.

[Darrell]

I shoot the exact load 4.0 tg 124 mgjhp, 1.120 .378 crimp my velocity is always between 1055 and 1065 fps in my EAA Limited, and 1055-1075 in my Dan Wesson.

Either your scale is way off, or the chrono is in error.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Darrell

[RH45]

I run 4 grains of Titegroup behind a Zero 125 grain, jhp (.356) and it chronos at 1050 out of my M&P, pro, and my 5" open gun.

[millisec]

Sounds like you need to check your powder scale. That is exactly why I have an Electronic and a beam scale if something does not look right or just for peace of mind I check one against the other. They are always within a tenth. For me 4.3Gr of TG with a 124gr MTG RN makes 131pf at 85-90 degrees f.

For my part I always check bullet weights. Thats how I figured out all my 124 Zero's where really 125. Even contacted zero and they confirmed they have been 125 for a while even though the web and box say 124. Of course the weight sometimes varies +- .1. They were also spot checked with a digital mic and are .355 on the money.

Powder wise I use Hornady AP with a small rotor and pistol micrometer. I always flush it prior to restart and run at least a 5 drop measure which is always dead on 20g by Dillon Dterminator. I have also checked with a beam scale and its a consistant 4 grains per drop.

Anyway we are both using different bullets with the same result and the only suspect is the powder.

[wmounts]

I think I've found my hiccup...

My crimps are much tighter than I originally set them. It seems that "somehow", the crimp die was ratcheted down significantly more than I originally set it (~ 2 years ago.). I check the Size/Deprime, bell, and bullet press (for OAL) dies regularly, but somehow, I missed the crimp die.

Mea Culpa!!

A hearty thank you to all who assisted in this gremlin hunt.

[TonyT]

Shot at USPSA VAMD Sectional Match last week...

124 gr. Montana Gold JHP, 4.0 gr. Titegroup, 1.120 OAL, Temperature ~ 82F.

Chrono'd at 1200 fps! (average of 3 rounds)

Next day, temperature ~ 78F, had the chrono guy check a load for me (I was one of the match ROs),

same bullet, same OAL, 3.5gr. Titegroup

Chrono'd at 1113 fps. (average of 3 rounds)

This is significantly higher than "book" values or any loads seen on the 'net.

ETA: this was in a G17

Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks in advance!

Sounds real strange. 4.0 gr. Titegroup gave me 1094 fps and 4.2 gr. gave me 1139 fps. Was`the chrono calibrated vs some commercial ammo?

[wmounts]

Shot at USPSA VAMD Sectional Match last week...

124 gr. Montana Gold JHP, 4.0 gr. Titegroup, 1.120 OAL, Temperature ~ 82F.

Chrono'd at 1200 fps! (average of 3 rounds)

Next day, temperature ~ 78F, had the chrono guy check a load for me (I was one of the match ROs),

same bullet, same OAL, 3.5gr. Titegroup

Chrono'd at 1113 fps. (average of 3 rounds)

This is significantly higher than "book" values or any loads seen on the 'net.

ETA: this was in a G17

Any ideas, anyone?

Thanks in advance!

Sounds real strange. 4.0 gr. Titegroup gave me 1094 fps and 4.2 gr. gave me 1139 fps. Was`the chrono calibrated vs some commercial ammo?

I was told that it was calibrated, but I don't know details. The rest of the squad's power factors were all in line with expectations. I've lessened my crimp significantly, and will head out this afternoon or tomorrow morning to check things out.

[TAP]

Please post your chrono results. I would like to know if it was the crimp before I go and buy a couple of jugs of TG. Thanks.

[millisec]

I'll be interested to see the results too. I pulled apart a couple random rounds from the batch last night and rechecked everything. Powder was 4g, bullet was 125g +- .1 and .355. Crimp is at .375... and not so much as a mark on the bullets from the crimp. As a first I'm actually hoping for a chrono at the local match this weekend

[millisec]

No chrono but Saturday I decided to load a fresh bunch for the match. All specs stayed the same but I dropped TG down from 4.0 to 3.8. To further confuse things I put the stock spring back in my M&P 9 Pro. Could not have asked for smoother and shot one of my fastest/most accurate matches. Don't know whats up with the TG (if anything) but I'm happy with the load I settled on and know from feel it will easily make PF. As for the 650 or so 4g loads I have left I'll shoot them up in practice.

That Saturday load was possible because a bunch of Zero's showed up Saturday. Great bullets but a little off in weight consistancy and this batch runs lighter than the last batch. Sold as 124 FMJ the last batch ranged from 124.9 - 125.3. These range anywhere from 124.5-124.9 and at least one was 124.2. But like I said they worked just fine.

[gm iprod]

ll of those bullet weights are well within spec for a std bullet.

If you were paying SIerra JHP money then they are a little more uniform. That kind of variation in bullet wieght will not cause the issues with your loads, unless you accidently loaded 125gr over a 115gr load.

I use the 115gr and 125gr JHP a lot. They usually run 114.5 to 115gr and stay under 1.5" at 50. The 125gr run 124.5 to 125.5 depending onbatch and never more than .6gr variation between the heaviest andlightest I have found. .4grain variation top to bottom is fine. that is .2gr +/- and therefore .16%.