Thumb-cocking your pistol in the holster

[kgunz11]

Are you worried that the gun is going to go off in my holster as a result of me cocking it and then applying the safety?

[Nik Habicht]

Are you worried that the gun is going to go off in my holster as a result of me cocking it and then applying the safety?

Yep. Manipulating parts of the fire control mechanism while the muzzle's pointed at part of your or someone else's anatomy should concern you too.....

But then, since you said this:

I know exactly the condition of my gun at all times. I'm not some new kid from the city that just learned about guns and started shooting. They've been a part of my entire life. The "guns are always loaded" mentality is for other people, so they don't hurt themselves or others because they are not responsible enough to know the condition of their gun at all times.

I'm guessing you fail to see the potential risk. You're not worried about the example you're setting to someone newer to the sport or to gunhandling in general.....

People who are "certain," who are unwilling to doubt, to consider other possibilities, scare the crap out of me in any serious endeavor....

[kgunz11]

Likewise Nik, people that do not know the condition of their gun scare the crap out of me. It's THOSE people that always say "but I thought it was unloaded". I'm pretty confident in my ability to inspect my firearm to make sure it is free of ammunition, I don't need to do it again when I walk to the next stage. Doing so is an admission of not doing it correctly the first time. I've never worked the action on any of my firearms and been shocked to see a round come out.

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...]

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

K

I don't know you from Adam ... So if you come to the line and on MR cock the hammer in your holster and th RO asks you to show him an empty chamber (before anything goes any further,) you WILL NOT be offended or give him a hard time? Just want to make certain I understand what you've posted.

[kgunz11]

[...]

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

K

I don't know you from Adam ... So if you come to the line and on MR cock the hammer in your holster and th RO asks you to show him an empty chamber (before anything goes any further,) you WILL NOT be offended or give him a hard time? Just want to make certain I understand what you've posted.

Let me try this again... I know the condition of my gun, if you do not know the condition of yours, you better check it.

The RO has no authority to do that. If I then draw and fire a live round into my first target, then I can be disqualified from the match according to the match rules. The RO will get the opportunity at "unload and show clear" to see an empty chamber.

You're right, you don't know me from Adam, just like I don't know someone showing up at a match isn't clinically depressed to the point of taking their own life. You could do a little research on "gun range suicide".

I consider myself a safe shooter. I always know the condition of the firearm I am carrying. I am an NRA certified instructor, and I know why we address firearms handling like we do.

At work, I dry fire guns HUNDREDS of times a day, checking each one of them before I do. I also check every firearm before passing it to a customer. That's not the gun sitting on my hip though, and it's better to be safe than sorry in an environment when anything can happen.

You do what you need to do, but understand, when I thumb cock my gun in the holster I'm just as sure it's unloaded as anyone that pulls it out and works the action for you again in front of your own eyes. I've already done that and see no need to do it again for your satisfaction. Again, I can count the number of times I've cocked the gun in the holster on my 2 hands, but I've seen it done many, many times.

[kgunz11]

Let me also state another thought here, and I hope no one takes offense to this, but the whole mentality of proving the gun is safe in your post is akin to the powers at Capital Hill thinking we can't handle mags with more than 10 rounds. Thinking that we are not capable of carrying a concealed weapon. An inch takes a mile. With that, I'm finished with this thread. I've stated my thoughts and there's no since arguing that with anyone.

[MTBfarms]

The "Make Ready" command has been given. You are allowed to handle a loaded firearm at this time. As long as no rules or the 180 is broken, do the routine you like.

[Schutzenmeister]

K

Calm down, please ... No offense was intended. You clarified your post and clearly I did not understand what you had intended to say. I won't go into it any further.

[kgunz11]

No offense taken Sir. No worries, I just don't want it to turn into an argument.

If you're sitting in your living room and I hand you a gun, you check the gun and it is clear. The gun then sits in your lap for 30 minutes, you don't move and no one touches the gun, are you still sure it is empty? Don't let anyone touch the gun, don't get up. Sitting there in your lap...

[Schutzenmeister]

K

In case you overlooked it, please go back and reread my earlier post ... #49 (I think.) I am not very likely to say much of anything to you if you cock the hammer while the unloaded gun is still in the holster. All I suggest is that you put yourself in the shoes of an RO who does not know you and did not personally witness you clearing the gun at your last stage. He has no way of knowing if you somehow screwed up in-between and somehow reloaded the gun or not. Trust me ... I've been shooting for a very long time. I've seen stranger things happen!

All I'm saying is that if the RO seems a little uncomfortable, please be understanding. ROs are trained to be a little observent about such things. Keeping everything safe is just part of their 'job.' It's rarely personal.

[G-ManBart]

I haven't seen this one mentioned yet. Lots of guns have slide rackers. Combine that with a race holster that allows me to look in the chamber. What if I rack the slide back a time or two, verify the chamber is clear, apply the safety, unlock the holster and then draw/dry fire as part of MR? I don't see myself simply thumbing the hammer back, drawing and dry firing, but if I've racked the slide back to verify the chamber is empty, I think I'm being pretty safe. R,

[Skydiver]

[...]

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

K

I don't know you from Adam ... So if you come to the line and on MR cock the hammer in your holster and th RO asks you to show him an empty chamber (before anything goes any further,) you WILL NOT be offended or give him a hard time? Just want to make certain I understand what you've posted.

Let me try this again... I know the condition of my gun, if you do not know the condition of yours, you better check it.

The RO has no authority to do that.

Do you base the statement "The RO has no authority to do that" on there not being any range command listed under 8.3 that directs you to show an empty chamber right after a "Make Ready" command?

I was under the impression that Match officials were allowed to give reasonable directions. Failure to comply with the directions could result in a match DQ as per 10.6.1, albeit 10.6 deals with unsportsmanlike conduct, and I don't think this is an issue of unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Nik Habicht]

I haven't seen this one mentioned yet. Lots of guns have slide rackers. Combine that with a race holster that allows me to look in the chamber. What if I rack the slide back a time or two, verify the chamber is clear, apply the safety, unlock the holster and then draw/dry fire as part of MR? I don't see myself simply thumbing the hammer back, drawing and dry firing, but if I've racked the slide back to verify the chamber is empty, I think I'm being pretty safe. R,

Bart,

are you willing to point an unknown STI/1911 at a part of youre anatomy and rack the slide a few times? If not, what makes your blaster different?

I'd still love to know what the advocates of manipulating the firing control mechanism in the holster gain by not doing that at eye level? So far I've gotten "10 seconds...."

[Nik Habicht]

[...]

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

K

I don't know you from Adam ... So if you come to the line and on MR cock the hammer in your holster and th RO asks you to show him an empty chamber (before anything goes any further,) you WILL NOT be offended or give him a hard time? Just want to make certain I understand what you've posted.

Let me try this again... I know the condition of my gun, if you do not know the condition of yours, you better check it.

The RO has no authority to do that.

Do you base the statement "The RO has no authority to do that" on there not being any range command listed under 8.3 that directs you to show an empty chamber right after a "Make Ready" command?

I was under the impression that Match officials were allowed to give reasonable directions. Failure to comply with the directions could result in a match DQ as per 10.6.1, albeit 10.6 deals with unsportsmanlike conduct, and I don't think this is an issue of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Cocking the hammer in the holster certainly doesn't rise to 10.6.1. Refusing to comply with reasonable RO directions certainly does.....

[sperman]

...

Manipulating parts of the fire control mechanism while the muzzle's pointed at part of your or someone else's anatomy should concern you too.....

...

I paid a little more attention this weekend to where the muzzle is pointing while in my holster, and have a much better respect for not messing with the hammer. I still think the risk is very small, but it's too easy to make the risk zero. (I always get concerned when I agree with Bobby in one of these discussions. )

But to continue to play Devil's Advocate for a little bit longer ...

What is the "chain of evidence" that allows you to dry-fire your gun? You rack the slide, check that the chamber is clear and put it in your holster. At this point are you comfortable drawing your weapon and dry-firing? Do you feel the need to draw, check the chamber and then pull the trigger? How much time can elapse between holstering the weapon and pulling the trigger before you need to check the chamber. (I'm referring more to a dry fire routine at home, than match conditions.)

[wgnoyes]

No offense taken Sir. No worries, I just don't want it to turn into an argument.

If you're sitting in your living room and I hand you a gun, you check the gun and it is clear. The gun then sits in your lap for 30 minutes, you don't move and no one touches the gun, are you still sure it is empty? Don't let anyone touch the gun, don't get up. Sitting there in your lap...

No, I'm not sure it is empty. It's too important an issue to allow even the tiniest amount of doubt to creep in. ("It's ALWAYS loaded!") When I handle it again, I'll spend the miniscule amount of time required to check it again.

(I don't hand ANYBODY a gun; rather I'll put it down on a solid surface and let them pick it up themselves.)

If Cindy and I are sitting in our living room and I pick up a gun off the coffee table, first thing I do is check it. Then I may dry-fire a couple of shots and put it back down. Cindy can then, having seen all this, pick it up and the first thing SHE does is check it herself again. I verified it was unloaded, SHE didn't, and to correct that, she checks it herself. If she passes it back to me in the exact same manner and I've seen everything she's done, I'LL still check it myself AGAIN.

(Sorry John Golson, I'm going to say it anyway.) Anytime I hear one of these stupid stories about "I was cleaning it and it just went off", it's for no other reason than because that person didn't check the damned gun.

[twodownzero]

USPSA rules essentially say that you cannot have a loaded single-action gun with the hammer cocked and the safety off while in the holster. If the gun is not loaded, there is no rule violation.

Having a loaded mag in the gun (even if no round in the chamber) would result in a DQ.

I (personally) consider it a poor technique. New shooters are like sponges - they absorb both good things and bad things. We should not be doing things that a newer shooter might misinterpret and do at the wrong time and wrong place.

There's a cleaner and (IMO) much safer way to do it as mentioned by steel1212.

George - Technical question:

MR signifies the start of the CoF (8.3.1.) For all intents and purposes, we treat the gun as loaded from that point forward as a matter of convention. (e.g., You drop it, you've dropped a loaded gun, etc.) Hence, cocking the gun in the holster THEN applying the safety would, for a brief period have a "technically loaded" gun in the holster cocked and no safety applied. Why would that NOT be a violation of 10.5.11?

(Yes, I know it's splitting hairs, but I am curious as to why this would not be considered a violation ...)

Thanks

OK ... I'm NOT taking sides in this - really!

However, to those of you who "know" your gun is empty ... OK - But have you considered that the poor RO standing next to you - who may or may not know you from Adam - really does NOT "know" your gun is empty but instead must take it on faith?

As an RO I will rarely say anything about this practice as it is not technically against the rules - meaning there's really nothing I can do about it anyway. But ... Please forgive me if I may appear a little apprehensive when you do it. I will try not to show it, but I'm just asking for you to understand the picture from the RO's point of view.

I will never (in a USPSA match) deny you the 5 seconds needed to take the gun out of the holster, rack it, inspect it, put the safety on, and reholster it if you want to use this as part of your standard MR routine.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I think this practice is somewhat unsafe myself--but so long as I don't observe anything illegal, it's not my place to stop the shooter.

[...]

I know the condition of my gun, if you do not, you better check it.

K

I don't know you from Adam ... So if you come to the line and on MR cock the hammer in your holster and th RO asks you to show him an empty chamber (before anything goes any further,) you WILL NOT be offended or give him a hard time? Just want to make certain I understand what you've posted.

Let me try this again... I know the condition of my gun, if you do not know the condition of yours, you better check it.

The RO has no authority to do that.

Do you base the statement "The RO has no authority to do that" on there not being any range command listed under 8.3 that directs you to show an empty chamber right after a "Make Ready" command?

I was under the impression that Match officials were allowed to give reasonable directions. Failure to comply with the directions could result in a match DQ as per 10.6.1, albeit 10.6 deals with unsportsmanlike conduct, and I don't think this is an issue of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Cocking the hammer in the holster certainly doesn't rise to 10.6.1. Refusing to comply with reasonable RO directions certainly does.....

The RO giving any "directions" other than range commands and safety warnings under 8.6.1 is not "reasonable." I would even go as far to say that an RO who does this repeatedly should be required to offer a reshoot. It is not your place as a range officer to dictate what is or isn't acceptable to you. Your job as a range official is to enforce the USPSA's rules, under which this is an acceptable action during the course of fire.

If you observe something that constitutes a DQ, the only correct thing to say is "STOP" followed by "Unload and show clear..." etc.

Directions other than range commands or safety warnings are not "reasonable." They're not even permitted. And under 8.6.4, you should offer a reshoot to a competitor if you cannot do your job as an RO without making comments other than the range commands.

One thing that people may not realize is that the range commands are always given in English throughout the world. There's a reason for this, and it's just as important for our safety as anything in 10.5.

For the record, I would not draw my gun's hammer back and dry fire it at a target without checking the chamber. Matches are too long a drive and too expensive to enter for me to risk a DQ for an accidental discharge if by some fluke, after I showed clear, pulled the trigger, and holstered on the last stage, the RO and myself erred.

This seems like a question that falls under common sense, rather than the rules. We should know the rules and know what to do when we observe something like this. But as shooters, we should realize that not every contingency falls under the rules, and sometimes common sense must prevail. That said, as range officers, we don't have the choice to make up rules ad hoc to handle situations that we don't like.

[Schutzenmeister]

TwoDown ... (too long to requote, but you'll see to what I'm referring ...)

8.3.5 - (essentially) The RO can issue the STOP command at any time for any reason ... The competitor must then cease what he's doing and "wait for further instructions."

Now I wouldn't give 2 cents for an RO that just yelled STOP all the time for the heck of it ... But if something in his gut tells him something may not be quite right, I'd rather see safe than sorry. After that, he does not necessarily have to give a "range command," but he must give clear instructions to the shooter what he needs him to do.

And, before anyone asks the question, yes ... I believe that an RO who would 'play games' with this authority is in need of retraining.

A reshoot may or may not be indicated ... For example, see 8.6.1, 8.6.2.1 and/or 8.6.4. It would depend on the circumstance and some reasonable amount of judgement must be employed.

[G-ManBart]

I haven't seen this one mentioned yet. Lots of guns have slide rackers. Combine that with a race holster that allows me to look in the chamber. What if I rack the slide back a time or two, verify the chamber is clear, apply the safety, unlock the holster and then draw/dry fire as part of MR? I don't see myself simply thumbing the hammer back, drawing and dry firing, but if I've racked the slide back to verify the chamber is empty, I think I'm being pretty safe. R,

Bart,

are you willing to point an unknown STI/1911 at a part of youre anatomy and rack the slide a few times? If not, what makes your blaster different?

I'd still love to know what the advocates of manipulating the firing control mechanism in the holster gain by not doing that at eye level? So far I've gotten "10 seconds...."

I wasn't talking about mine, in particular, but from memory, I don't think my setup actually has the muzzle pointed at any part of my body.

I'm not a proponent of this, just wondered if it would change people's opinion.

If there isn't a magazine in the gun, and you pull the slide back, it would take multiple system failures to make the gun go boom, which isn't impossible, but improbable. R,

[kgunz11]

No offense taken Sir. No worries, I just don't want it to turn into an argument.

If you're sitting in your living room and I hand you a gun, you check the gun and it is clear. The gun then sits in your lap for 30 minutes, you don't move and no one touches the gun, are you still sure it is empty? Don't let anyone touch the gun, don't get up. Sitting there in your lap...

No, I'm not sure it is empty. It's too important an issue to allow even the tiniest amount of doubt to creep in. ("It's ALWAYS loaded!") When I handle it again, I'll spend the miniscule amount of time required to check it again.

(I don't hand ANYBODY a gun; rather I'll put it down on a solid surface and let them pick it up themselves.)

If Cindy and I are sitting in our living room and I pick up a gun off the coffee table, first thing I do is check it. Then I may dry-fire a couple of shots and put it back down. Cindy can then, having seen all this, pick it up and the first thing SHE does is check it herself again. I verified it was unloaded, SHE didn't, and to correct that, she checks it herself. If she passes it back to me in the exact same manner and I've seen everything she's done, I'LL still check it myself AGAIN.

(Sorry John Golson, I'm going to say it anyway.) Anytime I hear one of these stupid stories about "I was cleaning it and it just went off", it's for no other reason than because that person didn't check the damned gun.

Bill, please take no offense to this, but are you not responsible enough to hold a gun in your lap for 30 minutes and not know the gun is still unloaded?

What amount of time must pass before you think you need to check it? Do you rack the slide every 2 minutes to make sure it is empty?

Let me say it this way... I am a responsible enough person to know the condition of my gun while shooting a match. I know when I load and when I unload it. I'm sharp enough to KNOW it is unloaded. I don't need to check it every 2 minutes to make sure some round hasn't mysteriously and magically appeared in the chamber. Maybe when I get older and my mental condition/memory weakens I might change that.

[twodownzero]

TwoDown ... (too long to requote, but you'll see to what I'm referring ...)

8.3.5 - (essentially) The RO can issue the STOP command at any time for any reason ... The competitor must then cease what he's doing and "wait for further instructions."

Now I wouldn't give 2 cents for an RO that just yelled STOP all the time for the heck of it ... But if something in his gut tells him something may not be quite right, I'd rather see safe than sorry. After that, he does not necessarily have to give a "range command," but he must give clear instructions to the shooter what he needs him to do.

And, before anyone asks the question, yes ... I believe that an RO who would 'play games' with this authority is in need of retraining.

A reshoot may or may not be indicated ... For example, see 8.6.1, 8.6.2.1 and/or 8.6.4. It would depend on the circumstance and some reasonable amount of judgement must be employed.

A reshoot is required if you stop a competitor for the wrong reason. The reason why competitors must stop anytime the stop command is given is common sense. Interfering with a competitor is not allowed and is grounds for a reshoot.

The word "reasonable" does not mean "what I think is reasonable." If there is actual reason other than that you are uncomfortable with a competitor's permitted behavior after the "make ready" command, this is quite obviously not reasonable.

There are two types of words you should utter as an RO. The first is range commands which are quoted verbatim in 8.3. The other is "safety warnings." What that means is that unless you are giving what is rationally related to a safety warning under 8.6.1, if you are saying anything other than the quoted phrases in 8.3, you are wrong and should offer a reshoot to the competitor.

Perhaps it's not enforced enough, but ROs should know the range commands and not utter any other phrases during a course of fire other than range commands. This has the potential to be very dangerous. The exceptions in 8.6.1 are intentionally narrow to avoid unnecessary reshoots, but this should not be mistaken for the plain rule--which is that whenever possible, only range commands should be given to a competitor during a course of fire.

Deviating for this could be very dangerous, especially if the shooter does not understand English. The range commands are standardized within our sport and nearly identical throughout the world for a reason.

If you think you see something that violates the rules, of course you should issue "stop" followed by "unload and show clear." And if you're wrong, and you cannot cite a rule that the competitor violated, a reshoot is not discretionary--it is required.

I think a lot of people here really think that the role of the RO is adversarial to that of the shooter. This is wrong. The competitor should have the leeway to solve the course of fire as he sees fit. Range officials must not be allowed to interfere unless rules are violated.

If you cannot sufficiently control your "gut" to follow the range procedures in chapter 8 and enforce the USPSA rule book, I suggest that you hand the timer and/or clipboard to someone else. We are involved in a sport that entails running around with a loaded gun. We have an extensive set of safety rules in place to avoid scary situations. If someone wants to draw their gun, not break the 180, and pull the trigger without checking the chamber, so be it. If a round goes off, they will be DQed and go home--it's that simple.

You may not like the idea of waiting until a rule is violated to stop the shooter, but that is your job. "Reasonable" implies nothing less than a rational relationship to the rules of which you are expected to enforce.

[kgunz11]

Very well said Sir.

[Nik Habicht]

Tim,

to make this really short: Reasonable instructions aren't limited to the range commands. The sport is dynamic enough that stuff comes up, that isn't covered by the range commands and safety warnings. Not all of that is grounds for a reshoot, nor is it necessarily indicative of RO incompetence.

RMs tend to give their staff pretty wide latitude -- and that is as it should be. No ROs/CROs/RMs = no match.....

[Schutzenmeister]

Two Down

I think you've read way more into my post than what I wrote ... Examples:

I don't have to wait for the shooter to do something unsafe in order to stop him ... Safety problems can - and do - arise on occasion independent of the shooter's actions. At that point it is my duty to stop him. OF COURSE he will get a reshoot under these circumstances ...

If the shooter gets stopped before he can fire a shot, technically he doesn't get a reshoot - You restart him! I know that's splitting hairs, but if he hasn't fired a shot, how can the be a REshoot? In many larger matches, reshoots must be authorized by the RM ... Generally speaking, I've never heard of anyone needing RM approval to issue a reStart, when the situaiton warrants.

Next, I've worked a HECK of a lot of matches in places where very few people spoke English. I promise, I know the reason for standardization of the commands - in English ... better than most.

Finally, if you dislike my use of the word 'reasonable', then I ask you - please - go to the three rules I referenced and tell me what word you would substitute in the situations therein described.

[Singlestack]

It seems some folks have forgotten or never learned the #1 rule when shooting with a RO watching. NEVER SCARE THE RO! If you scare the RO, anything he says after that is perfectly reasonable. It may or may not be in a language anybody can understand but it is still reasonable.