Is long barrel really way to go for Shotgun comp?

[Aloha Robert]

I saw this pic of none other than Travis Haley with a short barrel shotgun (lengthened to legal with brake)showing triple tap. There is another pic of double tap with no muzzle rise. Makes me wonder if maybe many of us are going wrong direction with long barels and heavy mid barel brakes. Do you think this might be an advantage on some types of COF? Like maybe those with a lot of swing aquisition or tight ports? Edited May 18, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[ken hebert]

Not really. Lets put it this way: at Larue last weekend I was 4th on the house clearing stage (mostly rifle, 4 shot, and some pistol at the end) and I run an 18" barrel AR with a 3" break and an A2 length stock. I never felt hampered or bound up by the confines of the hallways, doors, corners or transitions. My 24" Benelli is maybe 6" longer than this rifle and I really feel that I could have ran thru this course with is about as fast (minus reloads of course!).

dollars to donuts that pic one is of a full auto saiga doing a 3rd group, not Travis engaging 3 individual targets semi-auto.

I'll stick with my 24" Benelli and the 19" Saiga. Its been proven time and again that longer barreled guns typically shoot smoother, carbine AR vs. rifle length, ect. I've not actually shot a short barrel Saiga, but I'd be more than willing to bet that a full size gun is smoother, allowing for faster follow on shots. There is only so many courses of fire in a 3gun match that are within the confines of tight hallways versus the majority that are out in the middle of a bay or on the side of a mountain/shooting AREA (RM3G, SMM3G, BRM3G, FB3G,...)

[Aloha Robert]

Not really. Lets put it this way: at Larue last weekend I was 4th on the house clearing stage (mostly rifle, 4 shot, and some pistol at the end) and I run an 18" barrel AR with a 3" break and an A2 length stock. I never felt hampered or bound up by the confines of the hallways, doors, corners or transitions. My 24" Benelli is maybe 6" longer than this rifle and I really feel that I could have ran thru this course with is about as fast (minus reloads of course!).

dollars to donuts that pic one is of a full auto saiga doing a 3rd group, not Travis engaging 3 individual targets semi-auto.

I'll stick with my 24" Benelli and the 19" Saiga. Its been proven time and again that longer barreled guns typically shoot smoother, carbine AR vs. rifle length, ect. I've not actually shot a short barrel Saiga, but I'd be more than willing to bet that a full size gun is smoother, allowing for faster follow on shots. There is only so many courses of fire in a 3gun match that are within the confines of tight hallways versus the majority that are out in the middle of a bay or on the side of a mountain/shooting AREA (RM3G, SMM3G, BRM3G, FB3G,...)

Congrats to Ken on good finish.

But dollars or donuts, Travis's gun is for sure not full auto, it's Semi. Ken's Info on Course design is good, and is that what most others experience is? Namely not much aquisition or ports? If so shorter would not be an advantage. But I suppose like the rest of IPSC, once everybody gets thinking in a certain way, course designers will come up with something different

I do disagree that longer shot gun is always smoother. I dont think you can say that looking at the double tap pic, everything is in perfect alignment including barel and blast. Of course very few of us have the skill Travis does.

[bigbrowndog]

the 2 pics are from different perspectives one is lower than the other so saying that everything is lined up is not correct. Also since we do not "know" time from the last shot fired to the time the pic was taken we cannot say for sure that he has not already recovered from recoil and is bringing the gun back down. His posture from the 2 pics seems to favor him leaning into the gun quite a bit more in the 3 round pic than in the 2 round pic, this would cause recoil recovery to happen quicker.

as for long guns or not, I too have shot 24" barreled SG in tight ports and "hallways" and have never felt confined by the gun. As Ken said, most COF do not have tight confining constraints.

[Aloha Robert]

the 2 pics are from different perspectives one is lower than the other so saying that everything is lined up is not correct. Also since we do not "know" time from the last shot fired to the time the pic was taken we cannot say for sure that he has not already recovered from recoil and is bringing the gun back down. His posture from the 2 pics seems to favor him leaning into the gun quite a bit more in the 3 round pic than in the 2 round pic, this would cause recoil recovery to happen quicker.

as for long guns or not, I too have shot 24" barreled SG in tight ports and "hallways" and have never felt confined by the gun. As Ken said, most COF do not have tight confining constraints.

On the double tap pic, to my mind there is no question that everything lines up and the timing is obvious, the (second )shell has ejected, gun is back in battery and barrel is exactly lined up with muzzle blast.

However, for sake of preventing thread drift, let's hypothetically assume you can get a shorter barrel shotgun that works well, the question is basically "Would there be an advantage to shorter barrel (in IPSC shotgun) as we know it?" Obviously it's huge advantage in the real world of tactics. And in general with pistol, course designers test rapid aquisition and tighter shots. Since I have not had a variety of experience with shotgun course design the question really is, would there be any advantage to a competition (shot) gun that was quicker? (Quicker as in quicker swing and more rapid aquisition)

[TMC]

I shoot a 24" Benelli and never feel hampered. At last years 3 Gun Nationals they had a couple with hallways but it never felt like I was going to hang it up on the walls or ports.

[smokshwn]

the 2 pics are from different perspectives one is lower than the other so saying that everything is lined up is not correct. Also since we do not "know" time from the last shot fired to the time the pic was taken we cannot say for sure that he has not already recovered from recoil and is bringing the gun back down. His posture from the 2 pics seems to favor him leaning into the gun quite a bit more in the 3 round pic than in the 2 round pic, this would cause recoil recovery to happen quicker.

as for long guns or not, I too have shot 24" barreled SG in tight ports and "hallways" and have never felt confined by the gun. As Ken said, most COF do not have tight confining constraints.

On the double tap pic, to my mind there is no question that everything lines up and the timing is obvious, the (second )shell has ejected, gun is back in battery and barrel is exactly lined up with muzzle blast.

However, for sake of preventing thread drift, let's hypothetically assume you can get a shorter barrel shotgun that works well, the question is basically "Would there be an advantage to shorter barrel (in IPSC shotgun) as we know it?" Obviously it's huge advantage in the real world of tactics. And in general with pistol, course designers test rapid aquisition and tighter shots. Since I have not had a variety of experience with shotgun course design the question really is, would there be any advantage to a competition (shot) gun that was quicker? (Quicker as in quicker swing and more rapid aquisition)

Your assumption, by watching or even less accurately looking at a picture, that a given gun is flat is about the least accurate way to determine how the components of said weapon are affecting what you think you are seeing.

I would be willing to bet regardless of the weapon Travis Haley would be able to get it to shoot relatively flat simply because his fundamentals are very strong. Conversely you could give the most well behaved gun to an amateur and observe a wildly bucking/recoiling weapon.

The only way to truly know what setup will work best is to try it on the clock vs. another setup not look at pictures.

With respect to running long guns in confined spaces, there is a lot more made about a shorter gun being quicker than you can actually show on a timer. Even on the very few stages where there are walls and ports, having the skillset to properly move the gun negates much if any of the advantage a shorter gun has to offer.

Edited May 19, 2010 by smokshwn

[kurtm]

""Would there be an advantage to shorter barrel (in IPSC shotgun) as we know it?" Obviously it's huge advantage in the real world of tactics."

And where did this idea come from? Now I will admit a breaching shotgun needs to be short as to not get in the way after the door is breached, but that is a VERY small amount of use, and we don't clear houses or tight areas with breaching shotguns in general ( unless the shotgun used to breach is also the entry mans main gun and then it will have a stock and mag tube etc.). I have never seen anyone hindered by a 22-24" barrel when it came to such work, and the accuracy and velocity gained are well worth any perceived advantage of "short" in both worlds.

Who is Travis Haley? I haven't heard his name before, not a dig of any kind I just would like a bit of info so I can decide if what is shown in the picture is skill or equipment. Thanks. KurtM

[abn-rgr]

Kurt, you need to get out more..... He is the man behind Magpul. He is worshipped by some as a God!!!! Much like you are to some of us....

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, i'm glad you asked because I thought I was alone in this clueless world. Also in the 2 tap pic are you sure the gun isn't being fired a third time and the muzzle blast is from it and not the second round, because the flash sure seems to be hanging out a long time if it is from the second round.

trapr

[mpeltier]

Since I have not had a variety of experience with shotgun course design the question really is, would there be any advantage to a competition (shot) gun that was quicker? (Quicker as in quicker swing and more rapid aquisition)

The answer to this question is obviously a yes. But a shorter barel does not neccesarilly do this. If it did we would see more shotguns with short barels in trap/skeet/sporting clays etc. I have not played a shotgun game that required this as much as sporting clays. How the shotgun fits and is weighted is far more important to quick handling. I have not found a situation in a 3-gun tournament that felt like I was hindered by a 22-26 inch bbl. while negotiating a stage. My feeling is that the gain in manuvarability would be far less than the loss in shootability with an extremely short bbl shotgun.

[smokshwn]

Kurt,

Travis Haley is the man behind Magpul Dynamics....it is the training arm of Magpul. Great trainer (one of many in the world) but had the vision to make training videos that are very well polished and have a high degree of sexy production value to them (not very many of those in the world ). He also was wise enough to hire Chris Costa as a trainer as well, again good skills as a trainer but also an insane level of manwhorish good looks . Put altogether, they have become very much the rage in the tactical training community.

Edited May 19, 2010 by smokshwn

[Aloha Robert]

""Would there be an advantage to shorter barrel (in IPSC shotgun) as we know it?" Obviously it's huge advantage in the real world of tactics."

And where did this idea come from? Now I will admit a breaching shotgun needs to be short as to not get in the way after the door is breached, but that is a VERY small amount of use, and we don't clear houses or tight areas with breaching shotguns in general ( unless the shotgun used to breach is also the entry mans main gun and then it will have a stock and mag tube etc.). I have never seen anyone hindered by a 22-24" barrel when it came to such work, and the accuracy and velocity gained are well worth any perceived advantage of "short" in both worlds.

Who is Travis Haley? I haven't heard his name before, not a dig of any kind I just would like a bit of info so I can decide if what is shown in the picture is skill or equipment. Thanks. KurtM

There is really not much doubt in my mind (allthough others may have different opinions) that in real world of tactics, shorter is better. But I dont know about IPSc

As others have noted Travis is highly regarded as leader of MagPul, but his cred goes much deeper. He's a great IPSC shooter, a genuine Marine Corps war hero from combat in Iraq, has been the codeveloper of many firearms concepts (including the ambi charging handle now popular in shotgun competition and just now hitting market in black guns), has many firearms records,etc. etc. I know he is big proponent of shorter long guns as most of his personal weapons including those used in battle and instruction are shorter. But to sum up, he is way more skilled than most other mortals.

I dont think skeet or trap is valid comparison as the type of gun is opposite to real world tactics, (you need nice steady predictable swing over and over again, as opposed to rapid target aquistion in changing environment.) (Side story, I got lots of snickers when I showed up at skeet range with my Benelli assault shotgun, I didnt know better at the time)

It is correct that the primary use in an assault for short barrel shotgun is breaching but that combatant does not usually change or drop weapons upon entry and most special ops guys will tell you they are glad to have a shotgun guy on their team. Velocity is not a factor in Breaching or close quarters. Actually military doctrine calls for a REDUCED charge shell for breaching, which also dictates a breaching brake that vents some gas sideways. They can use any length for breaching but choose shorter weps because of subsequent use in close quarters. Military procedures are different than domestic LE because rules of engagement are different.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[kurtm]

AHHHH! Well you can't beat Tacti-sexy-cal, so We are all duffers using anything longer than a 14" barrel on any shotgun, why didn't I see it before Ummm except if you have a tube fed shotgun you will only be able to get 3 shells in it and last I heard, especially from Mag-Pul, Lot,s o bullets is SEXY. I guess we will all have to get a stamp for a short barreled Saiga and learn how to "really shoot". The nice thing about pictures of shell "rain-bowing" through the air is you NEVER get to see if anything is being hit down range, (I once had a cool picture of *Red-Neck Tacticals head trainer with 4 shells in the air from a Benelli....but there was NOTHING even down range, but that was off camera)

Since I didn't know any of this I have to ask one more dumb question...How well has he placed in level 4 IPSC shotgun competition? I have been to most of them and in my blindness never saw him or Chris.

Note: Above post was all meant in fun! but I have to agree with the "Trap-Master" ( note new sexy name for Red-Neck Tactical's newest semi-nude poster trainer) it is the 3rd round being shot as the muzzle blast would be long gone after the SECOND shell is ejected. If indeed Aloha Robert is a devotee of Travis's, then he has already made up his mind and all this prattle is worthless.

* Red Neck Tactical is a hazy association of Loose Sights Traing Center (located at the beautiful storm-water lodge), Diamond M Enterprises and Trapr Ltd

[el pres]

* Red Neck Tactical is a hazy association of Loose Sights Traing Center (located at the beautiful storm-water lodge), Diamond M Enterprises and Trapr Ltd

What are we talking about here ??

Tacticool or Competition ?? As Kurtm stated, most Competition shotgun lenths are determind by matching the barrel to the overy long mag tube for your chosen particular division or event. Also in competiton (3gun more specifically) there is a advantage to shooting flying birds and/or 100yd slug targets with a longer barrel. Longer sight radius and higher projectile velocity.

We are not just busting doors down in a cramped hallway looking cool..but if thats your thing then ??

Edited May 19, 2010 by P.Pres

[kurtm]

OOOPS Forgot to add that I have been somewhat involved in shotgun competition, and outside of Bevin Grams Benelli (and Bevin made the one he has quite a while ago) I have yet to see the much touted, yet somehow invisible "Ambi Charging Handle" in Shotgun competition. Not in the U.S., not in Europe, not in Asia, and not in South America, but then again I don't get around much, and as a meer mortal I don't really notice much

[el pres]

Kurtm, some of us IPSC guys should do some breaching tacti videos. Appearently there are a lot of dollars out there waiting to be snatched up with that sort of thing.

The problem I see is that none of us are good looking enough. I mean as a heterosexual male, at least I was until now, I can truly say that this Travis guy is one Sexy man. Then again maybe it's the Saiga ??

[mpeltier]

I dont think skeet or trap is valid comparison as the type of gun is opposite to real world tactics, (you need nice steady predictable swing over and over again, as opposed to rapid target aquistion in changing environment.) (Side story, I got lots of snickers when I showed up at skeet range with my Benelli assault shotgun, I didnt know better at the time)

Crap, Ive been doing it wrong all along. I always thought a smooth predictable swing was a big benefit to rapid target aquisition, in a changing environment

Thanks for squaring me away.

[smokshwn]

Robert,

I am kind of losing your purpose here. You state your question as what is best for 3 Gun. There have been responses from two of the most accomplished shotgunners on this forum that the length is really a non issue. You counter their advice with more examples from a door kicking realm. It seems as if your mind was made up by a picture before you posed the question

So to help clarify do you want to know if a shorter shotgun is good for 3 Gun or LE/Mil activities?

Regardless of how many accolades Travis has accrued, a picture tells us very little of gun behavior, it is simply a millisecond capture of the firing cycle. A great example for you to watch would be Daniel Horner, his shooting platform makes every difference in the world in managing the recoil from a shotgun. Notice there are no short barrels, comps, of muzzle devices to be seen. However when shooting .15ish splits the gun movement is all but non existent. IMO this is what the posters have been trying to point out to you. The ability to handle the gun is far more important than its length, and the mistake you are making is assuming that the lack of recoil you think you see in the picture is related to the length and/or setup of the gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU5dsnBsxXs

[P.E. Kelley]

Here is a photo of a "head trainer" at work actually shooting at and hitting plates on a Texas star.

Oh yea not just for camera.....this shot was during a major money match! (I think he won to boot!)

Two hulls clearly in the air and one in the throws of ejection!

Patrick

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, we've relocated to Morningwood lodge!! Mikey, recommended it after his stay there,

trapr

Edited May 19, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Aloha Robert]

Only a few clarifications,

I am not trying to tell anyone how to shoot or what to use.

I have only made the observation that shorter is better for real world tactical and wonder if it is advantage for 3 gun. So far the answer seems to be COF design does not make it an issue. But would like to hear more opinions.

Basically IPSC is where it is today because folks are always trying to challenge conventional wisdom and sometimes come up with something better. So I dont think there is anything wrong with exploring non conventional avenues.

About some specifics: I dont think there is any need to go into personalities, and for sure Travis has the genuine cred in firearms.

About the Ambi charging handle. To my best knowlege Travis and a gunsmith came up with this for AK platform quite some time ago and is now being used by competition gunsmiths in Shotgun. Here is the the R and R version in case you missed it

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=106310.

One answer that did not make sense to me, is you want a longer barrel to match your long tube magazine but that would not be an issue with box fed shotguns.

So guys, my mind is not made up and I dont have a horse in this race, just a legit question of whether swing weight and aquisition is a factor worth considering like it is in Pistol.

Also I am not sure what the prejudice about "Taticool" vs IPSC is about in long gun. I am naive in that area. Tactical and Practical have been good partners in the past especially in Pistol. Also not sure I want to encourage any thread drift so if you guys can educate me about that prejudice maybe PM is best way.

One thing I heartily agree with is shooter skill trumps equipment just about everytime. That has been shown over and over in our sport as well as many others.

Back to the thread, Is it universal concensus that rapid target aquisition advantage from reduced swing weight and tight quarters are not factors of concern (in IPSC) because of course design?

Edited May 19, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[kurtm]

"One thing I heartily agree with is shooter skill trumps equipment just about everytime. That has been shown over and over in our sport as well as many others."

Well in F1 racing shooter skill plays very little in how the car is raced, but I digress.

You are talking only about mag fed shotguns, which are rare in the world of 3-gun competition. I don't know of ANY U.S. military unit using Saigas. A shot barrel mag fed shotgun gets heavy quick due to the big mag stuck in the middle, and barrel length would play very little part in the overall weight. Generally central weight is preceived to be quicker, and once again it would be barrel independent on a Saiga/Molot

Quite a while ago for the charging handle? How long? The first one I saw was on a Molot Rusian works gun in 2003 at the first European Shotgun Championships owned by Vitaly Kruchin.( Well before any U.S. shooter was playing with the sister system of the Saiga) He ripped it off as it would snag and hit barricades when support side shooting causing jams so it wasn't worth having on a race gun in his opinion.

When you generalise about "I.P.S.C. Shotgun Competition", you are really delving into an area that is mainly done off shore, outside of the High Plains Shotgun Challenge that Trapr and I put on there really aren't any big shotgun matches in the U.S. so where do you get all your info on Shotgun Competition and what is prevalent in them? I know all the U.S. shooters that have been over seas to shoot shotgun so I am curious. KurtM

[Larry White]

I think the answer to the barrel lenght question lies right in front of us. The 18.5 in Benelli tactical guns, scores of new shooters show up with those guns, they just have to be the best thing going, just so tacticool, right ?Well after they shoot for a while and get tired of getting thier butt kicked by 60 year old fat men they change guns, most dump the pistol grip or not, but they all wind up with a 21 or 24 inch vent rib gun. The red dots and scopes may make some diffrence in open but even there most of the guys that win often will have the long guns. In fact a winning open shotgun is probaly a 26 in gun. Comps and breaks aside the longer gun is just smoother, and that makes it faster.-----------Larry

[smokshwn]

It's not a matter of anyone here resisting the exploration of non conventional issues. It is a matter of the issue that you brought up having been disproved time and again. It is hardly a non conventional idea, as a matter of fact it is a very conventional idea whose merit has been found wanting with respect to 3 Gun.

One of the very important reasons for a longer gun is the ability to "get out on gun" and drive it. If you are all cramped up on the gun it is very difficult to start and stop it quickly. It may be a great position to go through doors in but it sucks for transitioning quickly. This is a point hammered home by Magpul and is the idea behind the AFG. It encourages the shooter to get farther out on the gun and get the hand up on the barrel/forearm where they can control the center of gravity better. A short weapon does not allow for this as easily as a longer one. Shorter is not always better.

Also being very familiar with all of the Magpul materials it is a common theme that runs throughout the series that the mission drives the weapon setup. As a matter of fact both Travis and Chris reiterate it several times throughout their instruction.

Edited May 20, 2010 by smokshwn