Production Question?

[jrf]

I'm fairly new to USPSA shooting, and am getting better. Amazing what practice can do. At any rate, I mostly shoot Production and Limited 10. As I started in this sport, I was much less concerned with the "rules" as they pertained to bending as I was with, let's just get bullets down range safely and work on technique. Because in my opinion 95% of shooting is the shooter. Now I'm starting to make sure I've got all my i's dotted and T's crossed as far as rules go, and keeping up with what's happening.

I'm getting somewhat confused about one thing in particular. Why the big division between SA and DA for production? Yes I've read all the recent threads about cocking, and Springfield and Glock... forget all that for a moment. Shouldn't production be just that? A gun you can buy from a major manufacturer that sells X number of those guns in a given year. Who cares if is SA, DA, Selective action, Glock... whatever. Hell I think we've only seen the start of the "name the action of this gun" game. Glock was smart enough to term and create "Safe Action" Springfield was stupid enough to call theirs SA even though it's the same damn thing as Glock. What I'm trying to point out is, why even fight over it? I guess I don't understand why Production in the first place was limited to DA guns? We aren't talking super blasters here... we are talking walk into your local gun store and purchase an off the shelf pistol to compete with. Doesn't Production already specifically say you can do very little mods to the guns? Are we worried that manufacturers would then build specific guns that were "factory" but with all the good stuff already done? If so why not make sure that X number of that gun is sold in the country? AND if the intent is for production to be for DA guns, then why allow Glock? I know it's not a SA gun, but it is a "Safe Action" gun, and Safe Action does not equal DA.

I guess what I'm asking is WHY? I don't understand the division in Production.

[ErikW]

Because then all you would have is Limited 10 with a different name and no after-factory gunsmithing mods. 1911s, STIs, SVs.

I think USPSA is on the right track by getting away from a strict DA requirement and just making sure the gun is mass-produced and doesn't have a too-easy trigger pull.

[GordonB]

Because, the 1911 type guns kick azz soo much you would have another 1911 dominated division.

[Skywalker]

Why the big division between SA and DA for production?

For the same reason Revos are entitled a brand-new Division instead of being classified in Standard: a different type of action that distinctly puts them at disadvantage when competing with Single-Action only guns.

[kdj]

The production catagory does seem a little ideosyncratic, doesn't it? My HK P7 is not "exactly" a single action gun (it does start uncocked) and would probably most fairly compete in production but it's not on the list.

My current understanding is that a gun needs to have an ugly trigger pull to compete in production .

Am I undertsanding the intent?

Kevin

[Flexmoney]

Too me, the intenet is simply...not a 1911, with it's bulls-eye trigger.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

I'm going to make a brass plaque which says:

The primary criteria behind the creation of Production Division is "No Single-Action-Only" guns

And IPSC has a definition of what constitutes an SAO gun. The reason is because SAO guns already dominate Open, Standard & Modified (and Limited & Limited 10) Divisions, and they make "regular" guns uncompetitive.

And forget myths such as "it's bring what ya got", "cheap entry level", "whatever you can buy at Billy Bob's Gun and Fishing Tackle Store", "as long as they made N thousand per year", "whatever you've got hidden under your pillow", "it's 9mm only", "not a 1911", "if Walmart sell it, it's OK" and the plethora of other mythical reasons. Sure, some of these happen to be fringe benefits, but see the plaque above (and the first sentence of the Production Divison rules) for The Truth.

KDJ,

The H&KP7 series are SAO under the IPSC definition, which deals with what happens when the trigger is pulled on a gun in it's "ready to fire" condition.

[warpspeed]

My current understanding is that a gun needs to have an ugly trigger pull to compete in production .

That would explain why the XD-40 is on the list, it came with a 8.25 # pull from the factory.

[ErikW]

but see the plaque above (and the first sentence of the Production Divison rules) for The Truth.

There's IPSC truth and USPSA truth. (See first sentence of first post.) You might say IPSC created Production and USPSA adopted it, but the divisions are very different. I see a divide between the organizations' idealogy and rationale behind their division differences.

[jrf]

The primary criteria behind the creation of Production Division is "No Single-Action-Only" guns

The H&KP7 series are SAO under the IPSC definition, which deals with what happens when the trigger is pulled on a gun in it's "ready to fire" condition.

What about selective action guns? Where do they fall? Since they are not SA only, can one shoot them single action first shot? Or should the statement be "No single action first shot guns?"

And breaking the definition down of "Single Action" isn't a Glock/XD etc SA only. The guns have only ONE action type. VS. say most revolvers that can be shot in two modes, Beretta, Sig, etc that can also be shot in two modes.

Actually maybe my misunderstanding is coming from the USPSA/IPSC defintion of DA and SA. What are their definitions of the action types?

[Skywalker]

[And breaking the definition down of "Single Action" isn't a Glock/XD etc SA only. The guns have only ONE action type. VS. say most revolvers that can be shot in two modes, Beretta, Sig, etc that can also be shot in two modes.

Actually maybe my misunderstanding is coming from the USPSA/IPSC defintion of DA and SA. What are their definitions of the action types?

jrf,

I'll try to clear the field:

IPSC Rulebook 14 - ed. 2004

8.1.5 In respect of handguns used at IPSC matches, the following definitions apply:

8.1.5.1 "Single Action" means activation of the trigger causes a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker falls).

8.1.5.2 "Double Action" means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls).

8.1.5.3 "Selective Action" means that the handgun can be operated in either "Single Action" or "Double Action" modes.

According to the above, Glocks are not single actions, since the trigger pull serves to fully cock the striker (half-cocked by the slide movement), and, then, to release it.

IPSC decided (according to Springfield description of the action, as Vince has stated in another thread) that Springfield XD action is to be classified as "Single Action".

[Deuce]

This is a topic of recent discussion with a few friends.

Before Glocks, if you owned a semi-auto pistol it was probably a S&W, Beretta, Sig, or Ruger 9mm. Because of the popularity of 9mm, it seemed even when Glocks were flooding the U.S. that most people bought 'em in 9mm ... the factory ammo sure is cheaper.

IMO, the reason there's even any debate about the Production division is 'cause there's two types of USPSA shooters: 1. Believe we need to continually recruit new shooters; 2. Don't.

I've only recently (in the last few years) started to shoot trap. I went to the local range. They asked me if I wanted to shoot Annie Oakley ... I said "sure, I'll try". The same guy won 5 times in a row. I didn't care to shoot Annie Oakley anymore.

Bottom line? It's really not much incentive for a new shooter to come back if they're not even in the same galaxy. As well, not seeing any other S&W, Beretta, Sig, or Ruger would certainly give a newbie 'cause to consider that their pistol simply isn't "competition-grade".

From what I've been told, this is pretty much why the Production division was formed.

The only other question, IMO, is "do Glocks and XD's give cause to re-evaluate that intent?"

The "first shot must be DA" rule says a lot, I think. Even the new rule for "thumb-cocking" says something. And if Production is simply assembly-line guns, then why not a Springfield or Colt 1911?

Personally, I think if true DA pistols with C&L were allowed, then the field would be level. But, as it is, many don't have C&L.

Ideally, I'd like to see a new division (in peeking around, that seems to be taboo for some reason) like "Staged" or something which specifies guns which, as a matter of the INITIAL trigger pull, have no other possibility, but to have their hammer/striker, at least, partially staged AND that the gun MUST have a trigger-pull of more than 3.49lbs AND the initial trigger pull must be longer than 0.125in. (or whatever to disallow 1911's) AND that it must be produced in x-number of units and blah blah blah. Position this division between Production and Ltd-10 so that they can't compete in Production, but Production can compete in Staged and that both can compete in Ltd-10 and so on.

But, I very seriously doubt anything of the sort will ever happen.

It appears we've entered the age where manufacturers no longer produce pistols of either SA or DA. But, with each new model name, they come up with a new action name as well. "Safe Action", "Ultra Safety Assurance", "Super-duper safer action", etc. Anyhow, I don't think any of it really matters ... except when it comes to how a newbie feels when they show up and if they ever come back.

Oh ya, another idea is to simply rename the Production division to "2nd-Strike"

Take care.

[Loves2Shoot]

If 1911's would rule production, why doesn't the Para LDA own it? Just food for thought. I want a trigger for my Sig p226 from Bruce Gray then Grocks beware of the ugly Sig

[Duane Thomas]

My HK P7 is not "exactly" a single action gun

Actually, it is. The term single action, as I'm sure you know, means that when you pull the trigger it causes the hammer (or striker) to do one thing, it releases it to go forward. Thus, to be considered a single action, when you pull the trigger the hammer/striker must be cocked.

(it does start uncocked)

Depends on what you mean by "starts." If you mean when it's sitting in the holster, yes. But when you pull the trigger, no, it's cocked, and thus single action.

[Duane Thomas]

If 1911's would rule production, why doesn't the Para LDA own it?

Because the LDA doesn't give you 1911 trigger pulls.

[Loves2Shoot]

If 1911's would rule production, why doesn't the Para LDA own it?

Because the LDA doesn't give you 1911 trigger pulls.

I know, but I've heard that TJ's comes real close

[Vince Pinto]

Ideally, I'd like to see a new division (in peeking around, that seems to be taboo for some reason) like "Staged" or something which specifies guns which, as a matter of the INITIAL trigger pull, have no other possibility, but to have their hammer/striker, at least, partially staged AND that the gun MUST have a trigger-pull of more than 3.49lbs AND the initial trigger pull must be longer than 0.125in. (or whatever to disallow 1911's) AND that it must be produced in x-number of units and blah blah blah.  Position this division between Production and Ltd-10 so that they can't compete in Production, but Production can compete in Staged and that both can compete in Ltd-10 and so on.

Or you could simply shoot in IPSC Production Division:

1. No SAO pistols allowed;

2. First shot must be DA;

3. Very few mods allowed (sights & magazines);

4. Approved gun list;

5. Minimum trigger pull 5lbs for first DA shot.

Owzat?

[spook]

QUOTE 

My HK P7 is not "exactly" a single action gun

Actually, it is. The term single action, as I'm sure you know, means that when you pull the trigger it causes the hammer (or striker) to do one thing, it releases it to go forward. Thus, to be considered a single action, when you pull the trigger the hammer/striker must be cocked.

QUOTE 

(it does start uncocked)

Depends on what you mean by "starts." If you mean when it's sitting in the holster, yes. But when you pull the trigger, no, it's cocked, and thus single action.

Little thread drift and the last thing I'll say about P7's, but you can fire them DA. Just pull the trigger back and then squeeze the grip.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

The "reverse" action you suggest still doesn't make the P7 qualify as "Double Action" under the IPSC definition:

8.1.5.2 "Double Action" means activation of the trigger causes more than a single action to occur (i.e. the hammer or striker rises or retracts, then falls).

If you squeeze and hold the trigger back first, nothing happens. The striker is cocked and released by your subsequent squeezing of the grip. Even H&K themselves describe the P7 as having a "single-action" trigger.

[Detlef]

If 1911's would rule production, why doesn't the Para LDA own it?

Because the LDA mechanism permits reducing trigger pull weights down to about 1.5 lb (great for USPSA but worthless for IPSC) but not a significant reduction of pull distance. The pull is significantly longer than on a Glock, and fast and accurate shots are more difficult to achieve with long pulls. From that perspective, the S&Ws should really rule the division (workable first shot DA and from there on trigger pulls and lengths better than on a 1911). Probably the driver vs. car thing again....

--Detlef

[Duane Thomas]

Little thread drift and the last thing I'll say about P7's, but you can fire them DA. Just pull the trigger back and then squeeze the grip.

Also known as "a hideous and dangerous design flaw" - that does not equate to single action.

[Deuce]

Ideally, I'd like to see a new division (in peeking around, that seems to be taboo for some reason) like "Staged" or something which specifies guns which, as a matter of the INITIAL trigger pull, have no other possibility, but to have their hammer/striker, at least, partially staged AND that the gun MUST have a trigger-pull of more than 3.49lbs AND the initial trigger pull must be longer than 0.125in. (or whatever to disallow 1911's) AND that it must be produced in x-number of units and blah blah blah.  Position this division between Production and Ltd-10 so that they can't compete in Production, but Production can compete in Staged and that both can compete in Ltd-10 and so on.

Or you could simply shoot in IPSC Production Division:

1. No SAO pistols allowed;

2. First shot must be DA;

3. Very few mods allowed (sights & magazines);

4. Approved gun list;

5. Minimum trigger pull 5lbs for first DA shot.

Owzat?

Nevermind.