.22 Rimfire in IDPA?

[Merlin Orr]

Stats

A study done in by the University of Pennsylvania showed that, inPhiladelphia,:In 1985, of 91 homicides44% .38 caliber revolver 19% .25 caliber pistol 14% .22 caliber revolver 14% .32 caliber revolver 3% 9 mm pistol 2% .357 caliber revolver In 1990, of 204 homicides 23% 9 mm pistol 18% .38 caliber revolver 16% .357 caliber revolver 16% .22 caliber revolver 10% .32 caliber revolver"The Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services studied 844homicides that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 through 1991.Firearms were identified as the murder weapon in 600 cases. Over 70%of the firearms used were handguns. Of those handguns where thecaliber and firing action could be identified, 19% were a .38 caliberrevolver, 10% were .22 caliber revolvers, and 9% were 9 millimetersemiautomatic pistols.""The Hawaii Department of the Attorney General, Crime PreventionDivision, studied 59 firearms-related homicides in Honolulu from 1988to 1992. Handguns were used in 48 homicides (over 80%) including 11handguns of 9 millimeter caliber, 10 of .357 caliber, 10 of .38caliber, and 5 of .25 caliber."Guns Used in Crimehttp://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/0900GUIC/Guns%20Used%20in%20Crime.htmHandguns Taken in Evidence in California, 19935,222 - .224,693 - .251,477 - .324,842 - .3804,671 - .385,295 - 9mm2,395 - .3571,787 - .45Does California Have Crime Guns?An Analysis of Justice Department Datahttp://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/snsweb.htmlThe top 10 guns used in crimes in the United States, according to anunpublished Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report:1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomaticAmerica's Most Wanted Gunshttp://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html"The number one gun used in crimes during 1999 was the Smith & Wesson.38 caliber revolver. 4.6% of all handgun crimes involved this type ofgun"An Analytical Discussion of Gun Violence in the United Stateshttp://www.plu.edu/~gunvlnce/facts5.html"Q: So is it fair to say that that's the gun that is most frequentlyused in crime?Wachtel: Well, I don't know that there's a direct correlation betweenthat. We have reason to believe that [of] the guns most frequentlyused in crime now, it has actually climbed to the 9mm pistols. Butcertainly the Lorcin-380 and other relatively inexpensive .380 caliberand 9mm pistols are very frequently used in crimes...The Lorcin'shappen to be one of them."Interview with Julius Wachtel, Special Agent in Charge of the Bureauof Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's Long Beach officehttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/interviews/wachtel.htmlThanks again for your question. If you need any additionalclarification, please let me know prior to rating my answer.Regards,-THVSearch Strategy:most popular crime gunscrime statistics caliber usedcrime statistics caliberguns used in crimes

[solaritx]

It is obvious that some think that this is a good idea, some are very opposed to the idea. Some feel that it could be benificial to their clubs and their members and some feel that because of the type of scenarios and props that a .22 shooting would not be good for their club or members.

OK......Why not give clubs options. IF a .22 division was allowed, make it optional at the club level (I do not believe that it should be allowed at a sanctioned match level). This way, those that are very opposed to the idea can "opt" out and not provide it for their members, and those clubs where it would be helpful and the clubs are willing to come up with solutions to the issues brought up, can do so.

What's the down side here? I put on a match and post ahead of time (no .22 division offered at this IDPA match) or I put on a match where my movers are activated by "bear-traps" instead of steel and what steel I do put in is "hits" rather than "must fall" and I post ahead of time (.22 division will be offered at this IDPA match)

Right now, the only thing stopping me from doing this at our local club is that the Beach Bunny Software needs a place to put these shooters <g>

Maybe we are more willing to be flexable because we put on 5-6 IDPA matches per month, so we do not feel doing something a little special dilutes our IDPA game or our IDPA fun.

Garry N

Pres WHIDPA

[steel1212]

I still say we allow it in the spirit of promoting the shooting sports. If you don't want to share the sport with a good attitude why not find a lonesome gravel pit where you can be grumpy and impatient?

As far as the we've got whizbangs and whirlygigs that actuate off of steel...if they are in a different division just exempt them from being required to shoot same. Surely the time will be faster through the stage, but IDPA does not recognize uncategorized overall results, so surely your speedy11, wheelofortunate or combat tupperware score standing will be safe.

How do you purpose we do this. The SO now not only has to keep track of the rules and keeping them safe but now they have to know what shooters are allowed to shoot what targets?

I am of the opinion that this .22 should be limited to juniors, new shooters and elderly shooters for enjoyment and learning. I am not interested in turning the proposed .22 division into its own equipment race with .22 uppers on centerfire frames and experienced highly competitive types.

So now only certain people can play with this new division? Don't think that is quite fair....

Putting the .22 in the same match covers the supervision issues. As for putting it in the what you actually carry combined with reasonable defensive round counts division....that is purely a get out of my way I've got a big gun attitude that will disinterest a junior by making them wait around until there is no one to paste the the targets and no one to sing praises, make jokes and welcome them into the sport.

No that is what the sport of IDPA was founded on. That is what the people that shoot it now come to shoot it for. I for one have no problem with you running a .22 only match. Hell I'll even come shoot it but just because you want .22s in "A" sport don't make us change one we already have.

If they ever allow BB guns and airsoft they should be put in CDP and given caliber, round count and power factor waivers.

Sure bring your airsoft and BB guns to the match....I wanna see it knock over my steel. Being that their isn't a power factor, it got waived remember, I'll just calibrate it to major.....it is CDP right.

Edited May 13, 2010 by steel1212

[steel1212]

It is obvious that some think that this is a good idea, some are very opposed to the idea. Some feel that it could be benificial to their clubs and their members and some feel that because of the type of scenarios and props that a .22 shooting would not be good for their club or members.

OK......Why not give clubs options. IF a .22 division was allowed, make it optional at the club level (I do not believe that it should be allowed at a sanctioned match level). This way, those that are very opposed to the idea can "opt" out and not provide it for their members, and those clubs where it would be helpful and the clubs are willing to come up with solutions to the issues brought up, can do so.

What's the down side here? I put on a match and post ahead of time (no .22 division offered at this IDPA match) or I put on a match where my movers are activated by "bear-traps" instead of steel and what steel I do put in is "hits" rather than "must fall" and I post ahead of time (.22 division will be offered at this IDPA match)

Right now, the only thing stopping me from doing this at our local club is that the Beach Bunny Software needs a place to put these shooters <g>

Maybe we are more willing to be flexable because we put on 5-6 IDPA matches per month, so we do not feel doing something a little special dilutes our IDPA game or our IDPA fun.

Garry N

Pres WHIDPA

Gary, I don't think it should be an option. It either, and I'm speaking hypothetically, is a division or its not. If it is then you HAVE to allow it. If its not then as a sanctioned IDPA match then you can't allow it. I just don't get it. If people want to have a .22 IDPA type match, then run one, just don't call it IDPA. Make all the targets paper, make it 10 round max with no reloads etc. It can be done and I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying not in a IDPA/USPSA match.

[Forrest Halley]

If they ever allow BB guns and airsoft they should be put in CDP and given caliber, round count and power factor waivers.

Sure bring your airsoft and BB guns to the match....I wanna see it knock over my steel. Being that their isn't a power factor, it got waived remember, I'll just calibrate it to major.....it is CDP right.

Yeah see I was right.... CDP for Crummy Disfunctional Pistol. You could always give the shooter the option to run down range and ninja kick "your steel" down... after you hand them a catalog for a "real gun." You could even tease them and say, "Hurry up you'll be late for laser tag." You cannot deny that there is fun value to be had anyway you slice it.

BTW I sure hope you are donating your time to the sport as an SO since you are kind enough to look out for "the SO" not "we SO's." If not I invite you to. I am[an SO] and I have no problem keeping track of any different requirements....provided it's in a rulebook for all to read and understand with a reasonable consensus (no secret email decisions).

Thank you for your reply. I enjoyed it and mean nothing but amusement to others.

[steel1212]

If they ever allow BB guns and airsoft they should be put in CDP and given caliber, round count and power factor waivers.

Sure bring your airsoft and BB guns to the match....I wanna see it knock over my steel. Being that their isn't a power factor, it got waived remember, I'll just calibrate it to major.....it is CDP right.

Yeah see I was right.... CDP for Crummy Disfunctional Pistol. You could always give the shooter the option to run down range and ninja kick "your steel" down... after you hand them a catalog for a "real gun." You could even tease them and say, "Hurry up you'll be late for laser tag." You cannot deny that there is fun value to be had anyway you slice it.

BTW I sure hope you are donating your time to the sport as an SO since you are kind enough to look out for "the SO" not "we SO's." If not I invite you to. I am[an SO] and I have no problem keeping track of any different requirements....provided it's in a rulebook for all to read and understand with a reasonable consensus (no secret email decisions).

Thank you for your reply. I enjoyed it and mean nothing but amusement to others.

Yeah, I would say I donate my time....I run about 17 matches a year and I RO/SO the other weekends that I don't run matches, thanks for asking though. Fun value yes, I think it would be fun, that is why I suggested somebody running ANOTHER match other than a IDPA/USPSA match set up around .22. It would eliminate all headaches that I know would come up during a match more so than what there is already.

Edited May 13, 2010 by steel1212

[Steve J]

Forest, likewise I MD 24 matches each year and have the timer in my hands most of the other 80 some-odd weekend matches that I shoot each year. Oh, and by the way my CDP stands for Custom Defensive Pistol and it runs more reliably than any other pistol or revolver on the range. Being a revo guy, I'll give you your due, but I hope you're not one that has light primer strikes if you don't have perfectly seated Federal primers.

.22 rimfire simply will not work in the practical shooting sports. No one could finish any of my stages using one. And like I've said before, we have a strick club policy. Once a child can handle a full-sized 9mm pistol and can safely negotiate the courses of fire, then and only then are they ready to compete in IDPA. As far as adults wanting to shoot .22 rimfire in IDPA, man-up and get with the program.

[Ahab]

Honestly, after re-reading the whole thing, I think now that the only way this could be successfully done would be if it was analogous to the BUG category - fine at the local level but not at the sanctioned level. The problem with doing that is "why", because if it's not going to matter at the sanctioned level then there's no need to do it period.

I have to say, if a local match director wants to allow people to shoot in an Outlaw category with Open Guns, .22s, Pistol caliber carbines or whatever then I think they can - just call it an Outlaw IDPA Style match or whatnot. The more I think about this, the more I realize there's no reason for IDPA to specifically recognize a .22 category.

[Forrest Halley]

Forest, likewise I MD 24 matches each year and have the timer in my hands most of the other 80 some-odd weekend matches that I shoot each year. Oh, and by the way my CDP stands for Custom Defensive Pistol and it runs more reliably than any other pistol or revolver on the range. Being a revo guy, I'll give you your due, but I hope you're not one that has light primer strikes if you don't have perfectly seated Federal primers.

.22 rimfire simply will not work in the practical shooting sports. No one could finish any of my stages using one. And like I've said before, we have a strick club policy. Once a child can handle a full-sized 9mm pistol and can safely negotiate the courses of fire, then and only then are they ready to compete in IDPA. As far as adults wanting to shoot .22 rimfire in IDPA, man-up and get with the program.

As a former CDP shooter I couldn't help but pick on it. I love the super 1911's that can't run dry or need a special magazine to run. If you have policies than you have to bow to them; it's understandable. My personal opinion is that everyone should be encouraged to participate even if I have to be outlaw to get it.

Honestly, after re-reading the whole thing, I think now that the only way this could be successfully done would be if it was analogous to the BUG category - fine at the local level but not at the sanctioned level. The problem with doing that is "why", because if it's not going to matter at the sanctioned level then there's no need to do it period.

I have to say, if a local match director wants to allow people to shoot in an Outlaw category with Open Guns, .22s, Pistol caliber carbines or whatever then I think they can - just call it an Outlaw IDPA Style match or whatnot. The more I think about this, the more I realize there's no reason for IDPA to specifically recognize a .22 category.

I have to concede the issue to this wise post. It is so much easier this way, especially since a rulebook update to allow the division would take forever. Do what you want...run what you brung...but do it in the other category. Makes sense, no?

[Glock3422]

Hey. Let's go ahead and make room for airsoft and BB guns too. Maybe with our example a group can petition NASCAR to allow bumber cars in races for the same reasons cited in some of the posts.

As scary as it has been, I was right with you up until this. Just because you think something is a really bad idea, it is no excuse to project your version of the end of the world. Your discussion would carry more weight if you focused on reasoning and rejected hyperbole.

[Glock3422]

Stats

A study done in by the University of Pennsylvania showed that, inPhiladelphia,:In 1985, of 91 homicides44% .38 caliber revolver 19% .25 caliber pistol 14% .22 caliber revolver 14% .32 caliber revolver 3% 9 mm pistol 2% .357 caliber revolver In 1990, of 204 homicides 23% 9 mm pistol 18% .38 caliber revolver 16% .357 caliber revolver 16% .22 caliber revolver 10% .32 caliber revolver"The Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services studied 844homicides that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 through 1991.Firearms were identified as the murder weapon in 600 cases. Over 70%of the firearms used were handguns. Of those handguns where thecaliber and firing action could be identified, 19% were a .38 caliberrevolver, 10% were .22 caliber revolvers, and 9% were 9 millimetersemiautomatic pistols.""The Hawaii Department of the Attorney General, Crime PreventionDivision, studied 59 firearms-related homicides in Honolulu from 1988to 1992. Handguns were used in 48 homicides (over 80%) including 11handguns of 9 millimeter caliber, 10 of .357 caliber, 10 of .38caliber, and 5 of .25 caliber."Guns Used in Crimehttp://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/0900GUIC/Guns%20Used%20in%20Crime.htmHandguns Taken in Evidence in California, 19935,222 - .224,693 - .251,477 - .324,842 - .3804,671 - .385,295 - 9mm2,395 - .3571,787 - .45Does California Have Crime Guns?An Analysis of Justice Department Datahttp://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/snsweb.htmlThe top 10 guns used in crimes in the United States, according to anunpublished Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report:1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomaticAmerica's Most Wanted Gunshttp://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html"The number one gun used in crimes during 1999 was the Smith & Wesson.38 caliber revolver. 4.6% of all handgun crimes involved this type ofgun"An Analytical Discussion of Gun Violence in the United Stateshttp://www.plu.edu/~gunvlnce/facts5.html"Q: So is it fair to say that that's the gun that is most frequentlyused in crime?Wachtel: Well, I don't know that there's a direct correlation betweenthat. We have reason to believe that [of] the guns most frequentlyused in crime now, it has actually climbed to the 9mm pistols. Butcertainly the Lorcin-380 and other relatively inexpensive .380 caliberand 9mm pistols are very frequently used in crimes...The Lorcin'shappen to be one of them."Interview with Julius Wachtel, Special Agent in Charge of the Bureauof Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's Long Beach officehttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/interviews/wachtel.htmlThanks again for your question. If you need any additionalclarification, please let me know prior to rating my answer.Regards,-THVSearch Strategy:most popular crime gunscrime statistics caliber usedcrime statistics caliberguns used in crimes

OK, now I have a great idea.

We could have the IDPA Gangsta division for less than 9mm/.38.

Seriously, there are .22 that are far more expensive than the typical IDPA gun, which would open yet another equipment race. There are not many reliable .22 over the course of a match.

The most distressing part of this discussion is that it is prompted by a poll in the IDPA magazine and that Robert Ray voted in favor of .22. Having had a few discussions with him, I am fairly sure we know which way Bill Wilson's wind is blowing. I am not a USPSA member, yet. That is not said as a threat, but rather from concern of what a .22 neutral match would look like. 6 shooters are enough of a burden. My club takes that seriously and 12 round stages are quite limiting.

[John Z Sr]

Having read all that has been added, I find now that I must agree with those against the 22's. My initial reaction was yes, anything to get more people shooting, but after reading what everyone has posted, I feel you folks were right and your reasons are well received, so I was wrong with my initial yes vote. It did get me thinking back to the first IDPA "style" match that I attended a few years ago with my 6" S&W 57 .41 Mag and HKS speedloaders and no vest. I was allowed to shoot and someone lent me a vest, that was over 100+ matches ago. If someone new shows up at a local match, let 'em shoot, maybe not for score if the gear is not proper, but let 'em shoot and they will come back, we hope.

[Steve Koski]

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

[ben b.]

Ha! Who would have guessed that Hi-Point, Lorcin, and Raven would get a seat at the competition gun table.

[Forrest Halley]

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

Aren't we forgetting the dress code? Sports jersey mumu, pants six inches below waistline and shoes must never be tied.

[GmanCdp]

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

Ha! Who would have guessed that Hi-Point, Lorcin, and Raven would get a seat at the competition gun table.

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

Aren't we forgetting the dress code? Sports jersey mumu, pants six inches below waistline and shoes must never be tied.

you guys are close to profiling...psychological profile: a description of the likely character, behaviour and interests of a violent criminal which is based on evidence collected from the place where a crime was committed...do we really want to do this here??

[Steve Koski]

Sure. It's fun. Plus, we've seen movies.

[Steve J]

Jeez, I got chastised for slipping into humor.

[Jane]

If they ever allow BB guns and airsoft they should be put in CDP and given caliber, round count and power factor waivers.

Airsoft??

ATF says they can be turned into machine guns: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

[Steve J]

Considering this post http://idpaforum.yuku.com/sreply/41480/t/New-rulebook-date-.html I have to wonder why this divisive survey question was even asked in the Tactical Journal.

[Steve Koski]

Because it's an interesting discussion. Some ideas are good, some aren't.

[Forrest Halley]

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

Ha! Who would have guessed that Hi-Point, Lorcin, and Raven would get a seat at the competition gun table.

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

Aren't we forgetting the dress code? Sports jersey mumu, pants six inches below waistline and shoes must never be tied.

you guys are close to profiling...psychological profile: a description of the likely character, behaviour and interests of a violent criminal which is based on evidence collected from the place where a crime was committed...do we really want to do this here??

No sir we are not profiling. We aren't looking to find anything. We are HYPOTHESIZING a potential new shooting discipline with dress and equipment restrictions...like cowboy action. How about a retro division for pocket pistols and snubbies requiring a three piece suit, hat and shined shoes? All draws must be made from pockets and while reciting movie lines.

[mike4045]

I vote hell yeah!! The old farts all say no. So why not, the same bunch that does not look to the future of their clubs. My kids shoot a few matches a year and 22 just makes it alot cheaper. I don't see a problem with it at a local level, but not any higher. I take out the 22s and shoot them just for fun and it cost nothing to burn thru 1,000 rds. I will admit that I don't shoot much IDPA. If it gets the kids out and off the damn video games, I am all for it.

Mike

[Team Amish 1]

I have to admit I am not an IDPA shooter but I think it would be nice to draw more people into one of the action sports, be it USPSA or IDPA, with even less cost for equipment and especially ammo.

Naturally, diluting the original rules of any sport is not what the traditionalist may be looking for but how about this?

.22 is cheap to shoot.

Recoil is negligible.

The guns are cheaper.

People actually do carry .22's so the "real-world" connection would be there,

We (IDPA or USPSA) would benefit more from bringing people on board with us than risking that a group of people starts another, very similar sport, who may even get USPSA and IDPA shooters to jump ship. Far fetched? Maybe. But IDPA and USPSA became two different cups of tea for the same reason, right? (well, kinda...)

I completely understand the power factor issue, and in retrospect, after having cast my vote in the poll, I see that that, e.g. steel not falling, could be a real concern.

How about this? I may try to arrange for a formal/informal .22LR practical match this summer. Success or failure, I'll post how it went.

Having read the insightful posts that are against the .22LR division hopefully helps me steer clear of some problems.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Team Amish 1

[Team Amish 1]

Gansta division. That would ROCK!!!

No guns worth over $199.

Every draw from a pocket.

Have to hold gun horizontal.

22 LR through .380.

SWEET!!! Been wanting to shoot my Mak in a match. Can I wear it tucked behind my belt buckle, MX carry?