635 PCSO Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 At last weekends IPSC comp I coould see that the top shooter would push his SVI as he shot. At first it looked likehe was flinching real bad but his hits were nearly all A's. Can someone explain how this feels what you are seeing, how to develop this. I am assuming he is pushing his sights back onto target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 i thnk you might likely get there by shooting without any emotional tension, and paying attention...being aware...and watching/tracking the front sight during recoil. If you can do that...then you can "will" the gun back to the target. You might try out Matt Burkett's Timing Drills for practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Agree with Flex, there is also the wrist lock action of the left hand that drives the gun down, not really a 'push'. It he/she was to have a FTF you would see it even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Maybe you do it too. Have a buddy stick a dummy round in the middle of your magazine. See if the barrel dips when the gun goes "click". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Years of practice or months of VERY intense practice. Yes you can time your recoil push but it has to be inside you. Its like all higher shooting skills they are controlled by the subconscious. Getting there is through experience though. PS Some might say its not a good practice. Don't worry about it right now. They are getting a few tenths per stage max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 635 PCSO, It develops if it needs to happen, not by trying. One thing I've realized is that is you try to do much besides watch the sights lift and fall when you are shooting then you are probably doing too much thinking. Fast shooting is about reacting to your vision, as you you master the fundamentals you react faster and properly, thus shoot faster. Shooting is not about trying, it is about doing what your eyes tell you to. If I had a missfire or ran empty you would see my gun dip also, but it is nothing I've ever tried to do. It happens that split second after the shot breaks, so I think if you where to "try" to do it you would really cause yourself some problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Man am I glad I read this thread. The other day after a long time off from shooting I decided to try some new 200 gr. loads that a local guy had made up in my G-21. During the course of running the 2nd Mag, I had 3 misfires and all 3 times my gun "dipped down". I thought that I was flinching but if I am understanding the responses so far, that is natural. Now...I do have a tendancy with the Glock to pull down on the gun for some reason but a friend has told me that many people who shoot Glocks have a similar problem. I don't seem to have that problem with my 1911 but it keeps breaking. LOL Ultimatly I discovered that I needed to change the firing pin spring in the Glock, that even with Federal Primers, the one that was put in was just too light. Any other suggestions would be appriciated. Safe Shooting to Everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 It's not a flinch if the results aren't bad. If you are consistently hitting where you aim, then it doesn't matter--pushing the muzzle down may be part of your recoil control. The mechanism by which it happens might even be the same as for a flinch. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 What BSeevers said...... Another thing you can do is to shoot groups. Can you shoot groups or are you all over the paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherlockWV Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Paul, I am not sure who your comment was directed at but I know it applies to me. With my G21, I can shoot decent groups but only after about 3 shots. I seem to "tune in" to the gun and do ok. Flex has given me some good advice that I have taken note of. I went out and shot a little this afternoon and even though it is only 7 yards, I was able to focus on my sights. After the 1st Mag, things started to run pretty smooth i.e. sights returning to start position etc. But... I have a long way to go. You guys are really great in helping this old age newbie. Safe Shooting - JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 You are one the right track.....keep up the good work, it will pay off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Maybe you do it too. Have a buddy stick a dummy round in the middle of your magazine. See if the barrel dips when the gun goes "click". Can I infer from this that it's OK if there is a muzzle dip on a dummy round (or empty chamber)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 It's not a flinch if the results aren't bad. If you are consistently hitting where you aim, then it doesn't matter--pushing the muzzle down may be part of your recoil control. The mechanism by which it happens might even be the same as for a flinch. DogmaDog The mechanism was first described by Pavlov and later BF Skinner: any behavior that yields a positive re-enforcement is burned into the animal's brain. The reward of the forward push is that the muzzle tracks back down faster and your next shot is sooner. I have long since given up trying to "cure" it from my shooting, although I can program it out when shooting my .22 bullseye gun if I concentrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Great topic! It's interesting to note that Ed McGivern (He and Jerry M are the acknowleged greatest speed revolver shooters of all time. Ed still holds one of the revolver speed records) wrote in his book "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" that the "push" technique was an important part of his shooting technique. In fact, he has a picture in his book with mulitple, superimposed illustrations to show how it should be done. The book was written before WWII and is still available so you can see for yourself! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Ed McGivern called it the "forward poke". I've heard people scold new shooters, "You're anticipating the recoil!" (I'm thinking to myself...... recoil happens evertime I press the trigger.....and you're not anticipating any?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 I thought I was the only one....right! This happened to me the other day. Went out with some guys who are really into steel challenge stuff. I was using my IPSC rig and ammo right up until someone gave me a tricked out .22 to try. After the first shot went off I was looking at the ground in front of the second target. All I could think was "Man, what a flinch". Didn't take long to get used to no recoil with that piece, but then again, it doens't make major. Oh well. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 In a newbie, it's called flinch, In a GM/master shooter it's called anticipation. I guess the later know how to use it but the newbie doesn't know it exist!!! Me? I'm stuck in the middle. I know what it is, but can't effectively use it yet dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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