USPSA Rules over clubs rules for safety?

[Chuck Anderson]

The reason this is not in the rules is because there are many clubs where it is not an issue. Why force those clubs, with no legitimate need to change to forward fallers to swap them out? There are a lot of ranges where a shot over the berm is really not an issue at all, Rio Salado, Reno, Parma, Emmett all jump to mind since I've shot them recently. I'm sure there are others. If you're club has an issue that makes it imperative to not drive down poppers and potentially send one over the berm, by all means switch to forward falling poppers. But don't make up a local rule, in violation of USPSA rules, because it's easier. DQ'ing shooters for double tapping steel is not within the rules, unless you have a variance from the President, or there is a local law (not club rule) to back it up. Can't say I've ever seen a jurisdiction create an ordinance banning double tapping steel targets.

I've heard many people talk about how easy it is to just turn them around, or add a piece of something or other to make them FFP's. Hate to say it, but not everyone uses the same popper design. I've seen almost as many popper designs as clubs I've shot. Trust me, it's a fair number. Some are easy to modify, some are not. I've never seen a modified setup that was as reliable as a rear falling popper. And several FFP designs will cause problems with calibrations. The ones that use a latch change when you shoot them. The latch may slide down, and even if it was a legitimate hit initially and the popper didn't go it almost certainly will to the calibration shot.

This can be fixed with course design, or local purchase of FFP's if needed. I don't see making this an across the board rule change though.

[Cherryriver]

Here's what started the discussion Brent brought up in the first place.

There's a club within a hundred miles of ours that used to have a no-driving rule, and the penalty was match disqualification. They applied it to all disciplines. It was announced during the shooters meeting.

They formulated the rule from specific incidents.

Perhaps they ought to have lost their affiliation over it, but few among us would want to pull the pin on an otherwise excellent USPSA program such as theirs.

At our own club, it's been informal. For years, we've simply told our competitors not to do it, and why. With no penalties actually being enforced, that's a gray area I imagine.

What brought about Brent's comment is that at a specific match, there was a shooter/shooters actually driving steel down. It was our solution to ask them not to do it, whereupon the rule discussion broke out.

No direct threats of disqualification were made, but the other club's rule was mentioned. Unfortunately, I had stuck in my foggy old memory the IDPA provision that local range rules take precedence over the IDPA book. Not the case with USPSA and I had to be reminded. That's when the blue book came out.

Be all that as it may, the fact is the club can't or won't afford a changeover to the forward-falling ones in any hurry. Worse, it just bought a ton of new steel a couple years ago and the club will be loathe to ditch new stuff.

I think we'll just take the option of applying for the rule waiver. Truth is, it's not a huge deal for us and I have no direct evidence of lead leaving the property as a result of this particular thing.

But keep this in mind- another club to our north is in the process of being shut down as a result of an errant .45 slug traveling some 500 yards-not far at all- and striking a woman sitting in a restaurant.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukesha/92930629.html

I don't want to predict the outcome of legal proceedings but it looks pretty bad for that club.

Keeping safe, and keeping the club in existence are top priorities for us.

Now, I'd counsel going slow on things like "it's not a USPSA match if a rule isn't followed" in cases of local safety issues. Down here in the trenches, at the small club level, getting and keeping clubs, ranges, and programs is an existential thing. And I can say this: if our club's exec board laid down a no-driving-steel rule and the USPSA program declined to observe it, the USPSA program would be gone in a blink; not the club.

Looking at an entirely different discipline with a relevant rule, in aviation, there's always a PIC, a pilot-in-command. The FAA regs are huge, intrusive, almost overbearing, but rule number 1 is that the safety of the flight is always the highest priority, and that the PIC can always violate any other rule if it's necessary to the safety of the flight. I can't go land my Cherokee at O'Hare without pain of losing every ticket I ever had... unless it's necessary for safety. Then all those triple-sevens can go scratch while I putter in.

I'd like to see rangemasters allowed something along those lines in terms of local safety issues.

We're not talking using party balloons for targets or requiring Mozambiquing every other paper target or demanding reloads with retention. I get that part.

We trust the rangemasters to follow the rules and promote the safety. Perhaps we can trust them with handling local issues when safety is involved as well on their own initiative as immediate circumstances dictate.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Cherryriver

[Flexmoney]

Here's what started the discussion Brent brought up in the first place.

There's a club within a hundred miles of ours that used to have a no-driving rule, and the penalty was match disqualification. They applied it to all disciplines. It was announced during the shooters meeting.

They formulated the rule from specific incidents.

Perhaps they ought to have lost their affiliation over it, but few among us would want to pull the pin on an otherwise excellent USPSA program such as theirs.

At our own club, it's been informal. For years, we've simply told our competitors not to do it, and why. With no penalties actually being enforced, that's a gray area I imagine.

What brought about Brent's comment is that at a specific match, there was a shooter/shooters actually driving steel down. It was our solution to ask them not to do it, whereupon the rule discussion broke out.

No direct threats of disqualification were made, but the other club's rule was mentioned. Unfortunately, I had stuck in my foggy old memory the IDPA provision that local range rules take precedence over the IDPA book. Not the case with USPSA and I had to be reminded. That's when the blue book came out.

Be all that as it may, the fact is the club can't or won't afford a changeover to the forward-falling ones in any hurry. Worse, it just bought a ton of new steel a couple years ago and the club will be loathe to ditch new stuff.

I think we'll just take the option of applying for the rule waiver. Truth is, it's not a huge deal for us and I have no direct evidence of lead leaving the property as a result of this particular thing.

But keep this in mind- another club to our north is in the process of being shut down as a result of an errant .45 slug traveling some 500 yards-not far at all- and striking a woman sitting in a restaurant.

http://www.jsonline....a/92930629.html

I don't want to predict the outcome of legal proceedings but it looks pretty bad for that club.

Keeping safe, and keeping the club in existence are top priorities for us.

Now, I'd counsel going slow on things like "it's not a USPSA match if a rule isn't followed" in cases of local safety issues. Down here in the trenches, at the small club level, getting and keeping clubs, ranges, and programs is an existential thing. And I can say this: if our club's exec board laid down a no-driving-steel rule and the USPSA program declined to observe it, the USPSA program would be gone in a blink; not the club.

Looking at an entirely different discipline with a relevant rule, in aviation, there's always a PIC, a pilot-in-command. The FAA regs are huge, intrusive, almost overbearing, but rule number 1 is that the safety of the flight is always the highest priority, and that the PIC can always violate any other rule if it's necessary to the safety of the flight. I can't go land my Cherokee at O'Hare without pain of losing every ticket I ever had... unless it's necessary for safety. Then all those triple-sevens can go scratch while I putter in.

I'd like to see rangemasters allowed something along those lines in terms of local safety issues.

We're not talking using party balloons for targets or requiring Mozambiquing every other paper target or demanding reloads with retention. I get that part.

We trust the rangemasters to follow the rules and promote the safety. Perhaps we can trust them with handling local issues when safety is involved as well on their own initiative as immediate circumstances dictate.

Sounds good. Won't work.

Every power hungry (not to get political) being on the face of the Earth seeks control...and one of the biggest hammers they swing is in the "name of safety".

That is why the rule needs to be as it is. If you want to "do it your way because your way is right"...whatever the issue may be, not just this popper issue...they you gotta make a case to the President and get a specific wavier.

What you can't do is say you are going to run an USPSA match, but insert rules you like and ignore the ones you don't.

Any issue that comes up...talk with your Section Coordinator, your Area Director, other Match Directors, experienced RO's, the large Human Resource of shooter that we have... Work the problem. Find a solution.

[Rob Boudrie]

USPSA is an activity allowed to use the local range facilities. If local safety considerations are not met, then the USPSA activity may lose its guest privileges at the range. In short, local safety rules can override/limit guest activity rules.

Club can impose any rules they wish, however, if local safety rules are applied at a USPSA match without the required waiver, the match is no longer a match being run in compliance with USPSA rules - which has the obvious implications on arbitrations and match sanctioning. For example, suppose an arbitration committee does it's job, rules that the competitor who drove down a popper did not commit a DQable offense, and ordered the competitor re-instated. The match would now be taking the position that they not only have their local rules, but they are not bound by the decision of the arb committee.

Now, I'd counsel going slow on things like "it's not a USPSA match if a rule isn't followed" in cases of local safety issues. Down here in the trenches, at the small club level, getting and keeping clubs, ranges, and programs is an existential thing. And I can say this: if our club's exec board laid down a no-driving-steel rule and the USPSA program declined to observe it, the USPSA program would be gone in a blink; not the club.

There is no USPSA rule that requires poppers to be used in stages. One can run a mixture of targets and plates, neither of which may be driven down, and still be totally compliant. When faced with such challenges, it's worth looking for creative solutions that allow the match to be run within the rules and meet the requirements of both the rules and the host club.

[mactiger]

What Jaxshooter said. Write a letter, explain the situation, and get a waiver. Simple.

Troy

[colt]

But keep this in mind- another club to our north is in the process of being shut down as a result of an errant .45 slug traveling some 500 yards-not far at all- and striking a woman sitting in a restaurant

I did not know of that stray bullet!! I had no idea what I was starting here.

We are still a young club that is learning and this is were I ask to learn from by people that have been doing a lot longer than us or me. Last weekend when we talked about the driving steel and local rules a lite went off in my head about the new school that will open next school season that is 3/4 of a mile from the club. I don't want to get my club shut down because of something I over looked.

Thanks for all your input!! It is a great place to ask question and learn from . There is only 1 bay that face's the school and till we get some steel switch over to forward falling we can get creative with stage set up to avoid a problem.

Brent

Edited May 8, 2010 by colt

[JimmyZip]

Flex is correct, but does anyone think that USPSA would over rule a safety situation?

Remember, USPSA rules may run the match, but it is not their range. If we decide that we must use a sheild, FF Poppers 15 yards for steel etc or there will not be a match would USPSA over rule us and lose a match. Now, if we said no pistol steel under 100 yards, then the club would be out of order, better they just say no steel.

What is always needed is that uncommon faculty, Common Sense.

Jim

Gospel there Brother Jim! Excellent! What would you rather have? A perect match by the book? Or.... no match at all? Is this one really that hard?

[aztecdriver]

Actually, at this point, I'm glad I'm not the pres. There are too many other solutions to this problem than to create a new dq offense and I believe it to be on the md/rm to put on a match that does not encourage someone to do an un safe action. I'd deny the variance and state nothing stipulates the need for steel and if you do "need" it, build shelters to stop it from flying like I've seen on other ranges.

Not trying to be a jerk, but steel mandates comstock scoring for a reason. If it's that big of a Safety possibility, don't present the target.

[George Jones]

Actually, at this point, I'm glad I'm not the pres. There are too many other solutions to this problem than to create a new dq offense and I believe it to be on the md/rm to put on a match that does not encourage someone to do an un safe action. I'd deny the variance and state nothing stipulates the need for steel and if you do "need" it, build shelters to stop it from flying like I've seen on other ranges.

Not trying to be a jerk, but steel mandates comstock scoring for a reason. If it's that big of a Safety possibility, don't present the target.

I couldn't agree more.

[Skydiver]

Sort of related to this about club rules, USPSA rules, and safety...

Let's say due to poor stage design in a Level I match, some targets are visible and can be engaged where the bullets going through the target will impact concrete side walls. The concrete walls were not really designed to be an impact berm, so the MD/RM declares that engaging those targets in that manner is a Forbidden Action and is a DQ. It seems to me that this is allowed as per 10.2.11:

10.2.11 A competitor who commits a Forbidden Action (See Rules 2.3.1.1 and 3.2.6) will be stopped immediately and receive a zero score for the stage. Flagrant or intentional violation may be subject to disqualification (See Rule 10.6).

Although the DQ seems a little extreme to me, the text above does allow for a DQ. (Additionally in a Level I match short and medium courses, where and when targets can be engaged can be stipulated in the WSB as per 1.1.5.1.)

Does anybody feel that this is a "club rule" that is present for safety reasons and should require a variance from the President? Or is this Forbidden Action perfectly legal?

If this "Forbidden Action" is perfectly legal, why is not legal to declare driving down steel is a "Forbidden Action"?

(I'm playing Devil's Advocate as I write the above. I personally feel that 2.3.1.1 a) only limits movement and/or plugging loopholes.)

[aztecdriver]

You need to read the language on defining a forbidden action. It can be used to say " you can't cut though this room in the shoot house" or " you must stay within the shooting area at all times". When you try and state that you can only engage a piece of steel one time, you are changing the entire scoring and engagement methodology. It's no longer comstock, you now made it extreme virginia because if you take that extra shot on the steel you are dq'd

My home club is indoors, and I might have already posted this but we take extreme care to present the targets correctly so as not to hit the wall, but we are not going to dq someone if it happens. Btw, on an iPhone. So I apologize for not quoting like I normally would.

[SteveZ]

Does anybody feel that this is a "club rule" that is present for safety reasons and should require a variance from the President? Or is this Forbidden Action perfectly legal?

Actually, its much easier than that. 10.4.1 which reads in part....A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe.

You just state that engaging a target such that the downrange impact directly strikes the concrete wall...will be a MDQ per 10.4.1.

[George Jones]

Does anybody feel that this is a "club rule" that is present for safety reasons and should require a variance from the President? Or is this Forbidden Action perfectly legal?

Actually, its much easier than that. 10.4.1 which reads in part....A shot, which travels over a backstop, a berm or in any other direction, specified in the written stage briefing by the match organizers as being unsafe.

You just state that engaging a target such that the downrange impact directly strikes the concrete wall...will be a MDQ per 10.4.1.

While I appreciate that these suggestions/questions are in the spirit of rulebook compliance, I have to say that the actual use of either/both of these options would demonstrate a lack of recognition that the prevention of unsafe conditions is the primary job of the match staff. Shooters should not be exposed to penalties due to the failure of the staff to prevent an action which is easily avoided by restricting the use or position of certain targets.

Using a Forbidden Action or Rule 10.4.1 for a known situation which can easily be prevented before the first shot is fired goes way beyond the purpose of those rules. Let's stop trying to put it on the shooter. Let's instead design the stages to avoid the safety issues at hand. If a problem is noticed after the stage is built, then use Rule 2.3.1 (not 2.3.1.1) to fix it. If the safety concern is that important, then don't use the subject targets at all.

[Schutzenmeister]

[...,] I have to say that the actual use of either/both of these options would demonstrate a lack of recognition that the prevention of unsafe conditions is the primary job of the match staff. Shooters should not be exposed to penalties due to the failure of the staff to prevent an action which is easily avoided by restricting the use or position of certain targets.

[...]

+1 (or maybe 2) to George ... The onus is on the MD and the stage designers (and the RM during his review of the stages prior to the first shots being fired) under 2.1 (especially 2.1.2 and 2.1.4) to avoid such situations!

[rgkeller]

A range rule ALWAYS takes precedence over any and all other rules for the simple reason that a competitor thrown off or barred from a range cannot compete in the match.

USPSA clubs are begging for range time. Few ranges are begging for USPSA matches.

[aztecdriver]

A range rule ALWAYS takes precedence over any and all other rules for the simple reason that a competitor thrown off or barred from a range cannot compete in the match.

USPSA clubs are begging for range time. Few ranges are begging for USPSA matches.

No offense, but this is crap. The USPSA rulebook is the integrity of the discipline. If a local club can NOT comply with the rulebook - then it might as well NOT host the USPSA match. I'm not in USPSA leadership, but I can tell you that if I go to a local club with a rule like this in place and still presents rearward falling poppers - I and a LOT of experienced shooters that I would be going there with - especially those that have mentored me - won't be back.

Sooner or later, all you are going to have is the locals having their monthly outlaw match.

I've almost had it with the mentality of suggesting local clubs can hold USPSA hostage because USPSA needs them more than the club needs USPSA. Might be the case, but I'm not changing my principals for anyone. It's either a USPSA match or it's not.

In this situation - there are solutions to the problem - a local rule is NOT needed and even IF the local rule is implemented - presenting rearward falling targets would then be a violation of 2.1.2 and the stage would be illegal. Take your pick - but I'm about sick of hearing how local clubs can do what they want - those that care about the discipline will abandon that crap and soon you might as well have not had the match in the first place.

[Singlestack]

Time out.