The Role of The R/O

[Phil Dunlop]

Just got back from our (NZ) Standard Nationals and would appreciate opinions on a contraversial penalty incurred by some competitors, and how the R/O and their perceived role affect our sport.

The incidents occured on a couple of stages being run hot on the same range.

After completing the first stage, a 22rd field course, the competitor was told to reload and holster and move to the next stage which required 13rds.

That stage required the competitor to start seated at a table holding knife and fork with the gun loaded on the table in front of him.

10 shooters went to the table, gun holstered from the first stage, were told to load and make ready but proceeded  to sit down and start with the gun in the holster in their confusion.

The RO allowed them to start in this way and  penalised them for doing so.

He defended his actions by stating that they were asked if they understood the course of fire and that his role was not to coach them.

There are a couple of issues which have come out of this, running ranges hot, and the role of the R/O.

For me the latter is a biggie, particularly because I know many shooters are detered from the sport by this kind of attitude, I'd appreciate your views,

P.D.

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess I don't understand the question. What would the penalty be imposed for? Common sense dictates that a shooter who has been instructed to top off and holster for the next string (in this case stage) has no need to check the chamber for a loaded round at the LAMR command if they choose not too.

As for moving between stages hot, I don't like that idea at all. I get nervous just being hot between strings.

[Flexmoney]

I recently took the Level 1 RO course.  Our instructor, Arnie Christianson, stressed to us that the RO is there to assist the shooter.

Reminding the shooter of the required start position isn't coaching...it is assisting (before the stage starts).  

This stage, or stages, was an obviously point of confusion...which is apparent in that 10 shooters had trouble with it (maybe their mind was on keeping their loaded gun safe!!!).

In my opinion...a poor job of RO'ing.  

[sfinney]

Sounds like BS.

I hate the "I'm smarter than you, let me see if I can catch you in a mistake" mentality some R.O.s seem to employ.

I would say that in every match I've been I've never been allowed to start in anything OTHER than the correct starting position. Especially with 2 stages back to back (I assume that the second course description was NOT read between the 2 stages), you'd think the R.O. would cut them a little slack.

At the Texas Open there was one stage that required your pistol to be placed on a platform UNLOADED in front of you prior to start.... but the R.O. said "Load and Make Ready!" time after time, several people (myself included) LOADED their pistol, before being corrected by the R.O. to unload and place the weapon in the correct position. He seemed irritated, but he DID say it

I'm usually of opinion that the R.O. hitting the start buzzer is tacit approval of my starting position, if I got penalized after the fact because one of my toes wasn't touching the back of the box, or etc. I'd be PISSED.

In any case TEN shooters did it wrong in your example above, pretty indicative of bad course design, or R.O.ing, probably both from the sounds of it.

(Edited by shooter40 at 6:15 pm on Aug. 25, 2002)

[Mario]

Phil I personally think what the RO did is detrimental to the sport.  Why p.ss someone off with the potential for them to not come back and shoot just to show you are "smarter" then them.  This Sunday we had a match were two of us shared RO'ing for our squad.  On the last stage I was RO'ing a 16 year old kid where the start position was hands shoulder high.  Just after the standby command he moved his hands towards the gun so I stopped him, asked him to get ready again and he went on to shoot the stage without a procedural for moving prior to the start signal and he has learnt and will be back to shoot again.  We are all in the sport together not against each other.

Mario

PS..  Phil how did you do???

(Edited by Mario at 5:10 pm on Aug. 25, 2002)

[Vince Pinto]

Phil,

Let there be no doubt that it is the RO's responsibility to ensure each competitor starts in the correct position, as stated in the written stage briefing.

This means having the gun properly prepared (e.g. loaded or unloaded, holstered or placed on a table etc.), and the competitor has his feet & hands in the correct position (e.g. hanging naturally, surrender etc.).

See Rule 8.3.1 which states "...... The competitor shall then assume the required ready position. At this point, the Range Officer shall proceed".

Of course should the competitor fail to comply with the course requirements after issuance of the start signal, that is another matter entirely, in which case he will incur whatever penalties are appropriate.

I am particularly disturbed with the case you mentioned because the table start was clearly a preventative safety measure to obviate the chance of a competitor sweeping himself on the draw while seated.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 7:16 am on Aug. 26, 2002)

[Ron Ankeny]

Phil:

I went back and read your post again because I missed the part about the table start. Oh my, I am with Vince on this one.  In fact, our club has decided not to do stages that require a draw while seated at a table for safety reasons.

One would think the RO would be morally obligated to ensure shooter and spectator safety instead of playing "gotcha".  I guess I would be upset if I was one of the 10 shooters.

[Nik Habicht]

You'd have to be some kind of jerk to start a guy who'se not in the proper start position, especially when the shooter is shooting multiple stages back to back.  I usually tell the shooter what the required start position is, if they appear to be ready to start from the wrong position.  Makes me want to grab the R.O. and tell him:" Be nice.  Try something different!"

[Phil Dunlop]

Thanks for the responses, they mirror my concerns.

Vince, when I quieried the R/O about this policy he stated that as he had asked if the competitor understood the course of fire that it was ok.

Does that fulfill the R/O's obligations?

cheers, P.D.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi Phil,

Contrary to popular belief, the questions "Do you understand the course of fire" and "Range is hot" and "Do you want fries with that?" do not exist in IPSC.

Having said that, Rule 8.3.2 states: "The lack of any negative response from the competitor indicates that they fully understand the requirements of the course and that they are ready to proceed".

However the RO cannot proceed to Rule 8.3.2 unless the provisions of Rule 8.3.1 are satisfied. As stated earlier, the onus is on the Range Officer to ensure that the competitor is in the required ready position before he can proceed.

The RO was 100% wrong to proceed with "Are You Ready" before the competitor was in compliance with the requisite ready and start position.

[Phil Dunlop]

thanks Vince.

[Joe]

It goes back to the 'Golden Rule' of "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you."

I attended the same class as Flex did and I believe the way Arnie explained it was to avoid the 'coaching' problem, if that concerned you, was to continue to repeat the 'LAMR' command and they would eventually get the hint or ask for an explaination.  This went for anything that caused them to be 'not ready', mag not inserted or whatever.

The Duties of a Range Officer are Safety, Assisting the shooter and applying the rules objectively.

Joe

[Julien Boit]

Here, in France, lots of RO are not enough familiar with the rules.

They all have personnal interpretations of the rules.

I even saw one at the chronograph telling a modified shooter chronoed around 155 : "Too bad, 5 more points and you were major" !!!

Any comments ?

Phil, in your case the RO did wrong and it shows that ROs don't know the briefing of each stage despite the fact they should have shot them before the shooters.

I enjoyed the European Championships ROing because on each stage, there were clear briefings, read the same way for every squad, without any mistake possible for the starting position, they told us what was allowed, what was not.

I think the KISS principles should apply to ROing.

DVC

Julien

[Vince Pinto]

Joe,

Ensuring that every competitor complies with the start and ready condition is not coaching - it is merely making sure that everybody starts the same (and correct) way.

Julien,

Five more points would make Major in Open but he'd need 15 more points to make Major in Modified. Was that a test? Did I pass? Is there a prize table ??

Using written stage briefings is one of the most fundamental requirements of a well officiated match.

Despite the fact that after 5 or 10 squads the RO can probably recite the briefing from memory, reading it verbatim is the only way to ensure consistency. It's also important to anticipate the most likely questions and to incorporate the answers in the briefing.

However if a new question arises, the RO should never answer it one-on-one. It's far better to ensure the whole squad can hear the question (and the answer), to avoid any possible accusations of favoritism or coaching.

[Julien Boit]

Congratulations Vince,

You've won all my consideration

Next year we hesitate between a course on the 14th edition rules for the ROs (now most of shooters knows the "Little Red Book" better than the ROs) and elementary school courses.

Any advice ?

DVC

Julien

[Vince Pinto]

Julien,

IPSC has proposed a number of small but useful rule revisions to the 14th Edition, and I expect (I hope?), they will be accepted at the General Assembly in South Africa next month.

These revisions fix some minor errors and clear up some uncertainties and I think the revisions will be well received by all.

For educational purposes in France, I suggest you ask my dear friend Monsieur Alain Joly to assist. He can teach you many things, including IPSC rules

[benos]

No matter what the rules state or require, the problem is one of "people." The world is full of all types. I've encountered attitudes from the most helpful and friendliest RO's, the kind that make you happy just to be involved in the sport and have met such good folks, to the fellas that are just waiting for you to screw up so they can hang a penalty on you. Fortunately, the latter are the lesser. I especially enjoy the RO's who really get a kick out of sticking a "big dog" with a penalty. We all get our self esteem in various ways...

be

[Vince Pinto]

Brian,

I hear you, loud and clear, and I assure you that IROA continually evaluates the performance of it's members to ensure they uphold the standards which we have set for the cadre.

However Regional (National) range officials are evaluated by their own regions.

It's therefore important that if competitors are unhappy with the performance (or a ruling), of a particular range official, the best course of action is to relay their concerns (or appeal the ruling) to the Match Director and/or Match Range Master and/or the Head of the NROI, as the case may be.

Range Officers are human too, and they also have bad hair days, but most times a quiet word from a more senior official will solve the problem.

[benos]

"Range Officers are human too, and they also have bad hair days, but most times a quiet word from a more senior official will solve the problem."

Very true Vince. I've seen that technique effectively used several times.

Thanks,

be

[MBneACP]

The RO was STONE COLD DEAD WRONG!

As one of the people who helped hammer out the original NROI/IROI rules and regs, Vince is 100% right. The function of the RO is to HELP/ASSIST the shooter. If they can't do that, they SHOULD NOT be in the sport.

Michael Bane

[billwright]

Well hello guys,

Guess who was one of the 10 lucky punters,

I must admit that i did hear the briefing and as this was the second part of the stage and i was shooting revolver and the first part required 23 rounds and the second part 13 rounds i was more concerned with how to carry the extra lead and when i was told to L&m/r  I holstered the gun when i should have placed it on the table, after the stage was over the R/O told me that I was due a procedural and I was no 9, I made no comment as I pelt sure that it would have been pointed out to him that he was a wanker by someone else.

Now this "Catch The Shooter Out Bull" has no place in shooting and I thought we had stamped it out when this bloke left the position of action director a couple of years ago, I notice that Phil Brown is standing for council again this year and I know of at least 10 votes he wont get.

Any shoot that has 10 out of 60 shooters given a proceedural for failure to observe the correct start position is not right and the R/O to shrug and say well i asked you if you understood the course of fire and you know i cant tell you ...well hell