Inert "gun" walkthrough?

[Steve Anderson]

Would it  be legal to use an inert, non-gun, gun shaped device during the stage walkthrough to get sight pictures and burn in the stage?

I'm referring specifically to the blue or red training guns used in retention training. They have no moving parts and are one solid piece.

Has anyone tried this?

SA

[Vince Pinto]

Steve,

A good question and I hope I can give you a good answer!

Under IPSC rules, there is nothing to specifically prohibit you from using an inert training gun to "prep" for a stage, nor is it unsafe to do so.

However the rule revisions which will be considered by the IPSC General Assembly next month include a new rule to deal specifically with the issue of sight pictures, which is something we have never before formally addressed.

Proposed Rule 8.7.1 prohibits sight pictures with a loaded gun at all times, and this basically deals with competitors who want to take a sight picture after the LAMR command and after loading (taking one on the line after LAMR but before you actually load is permissable).

However the same rule gives match organisers the right to prohibit sight pictures at all times, provided this is stated during the stage briefing.

The sight pictures issue goes back to IPSC's martial roots and the argument was that you could not take a sight picture during a self-defence encounter in real life.

Of course these days we are a sport, but the old argument survives with many people. Others argue that since you don't get a walkthrough in real life either, why should we allow them (A: for safety), but prohibit sight pictures?

Purists Vs Realists! Pick a side

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 11:29 am on Aug. 27, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

Sounds like a usless rule to me.  

I am all for keeping the rule book smaller.  Go FREESTYLE!

I'm not real keen on people taking loaded sight pictures...but, there are already rules in place to handle any discharges.

[billwright]

I believe that its legal simply because no one has asked the question before and it should not be legal because on Pistol Range we only have one type of gun and thats a real one, the implications of having toys around would lead to very casual treatment. and I for one would object strongly to anyone wandering around doing site pictures with anything, hell i get the willys when someone uses their finger (to point that is)

[Steve Anderson]

I can definitely see an RO getting antsy if they see a gun silhouette being bandied about, but it would be solid blue or red, and certainly no suprise after the first stage. I also would be glad to pass it around the squad...

This sounds like the unloaded mags in the safe area thing...Everyone at clubs I've asked says, "well you can I guess but we don't want you to, so no you can't, but it is legal.

HUH?

(Can an affiliated club prohibit a LEGAL uspsa/ipsc procedure?)

Course, Vince will bring this up officially now that I've opened my yap...

SA

[Vince Pinto]

Flexmoney,

Perhaps you think it's a "useless rule" because you don't need to answer rules questions every day on subjects which are not addressed in the rulebook.

When we receive dozens of questions on a single subject, we firstly publish an answer in our FAQ, so that we can get consistency in officiating.

However when we receive hundreds of questions on the same subject, we usually think it's time to make a rule to remove any doubt.

If you can suggest a better way, I'm all ears.

[Vince Pinto]

Steve,

The indiscriminate application of "local rules" has been addressed by Rule 3.3.1.

Unless it is approved by the Regional Directorate (i.e. the USPSA in the US), then the rule is unenforceable at a (USPSA) sanctioned match.

You'd be amazed at some of the local rules which have been brought to our attention. One club told competitors that if you merely walk into a safety area with a loaded mag on your belt, you will be DQ'd.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

I certainly see the need for rules...clarity and consistency.  I am all for that.

But, like our U.S. gun laws, we don't need more...we need to enforce what we already have.*

I would be against this rule because we already have gun handling rules that cover this one...though the RO may need to read his/her rule book again. (which is a good idea anyway)

As for giving control of this to the local match director...UGH!  That seems to be where IDPA is running into a lot of problems.  Lets have one, standard, policy.  If not, we open the door to some local hardass that hates Open guns and won't let the Open shooters get their dots turned to the proper setting (or some other silly thing).

I am a strong proponent of "freestyle" in our sport (done safely, of course).  I remember a quote that Jeff Maass had on his website a while back, "The LAMR command is freestyle... ".  I kinda like that.  Perhaps that should be the official position.

You are right though...I don't have to answer rule questions every day (I appreciate that you do).  I do get asked rule questions pretty often though.  I hate not having answer when asked.  (You may be my inspiration to really learn the book.)

Just one persons opinion...thanks for being "all ears".  I hope my feedback is useful in some way.

-----------

*(The gun laws that I talk about enforing are those that concern committing a crime while using a gun.  I used that as an example, not a point of view or discussion.  If anybody wants to talk that one out...lets not hijack this thread.  Start a new one)

[Ron Ankeny]

Personally, I think it is hard enough to keep track of new shooter brain farts, ammo in the safe area, etc. I don't think we need guys (or gals) wandering around with inert training guns. If we allow "blue" Glocks, "red" 1911's and so on, then can I use an exact non-firing plastic duplicate? I suppose you have seen the decorative pistols that you can't tell from the real thing at more than about 6 feet. Where would it stop?

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

I certainly do value your (and all other constructive) feedback. Of course this doesn't mean that you (or I) will always get what we want, but different viewpoints are informative.

The harsh reality is that the IPSC rulebook will never be perfect. However we hope to gradually reduce most uncertainties.

Hell, the Rules of Golf have been in a continual state of revision for well over 100 years, so I don't think we're doing too badly after only 26 years!

[Flexmoney]

Wow...my new Front Sight magazine came today.  Is that what sprked this thread?  Amidon talks about this very issue.  I say talks about...because he leaves it open to the RO's to make the call.  Now that he has done that, we probably will need a rule.  

I think Amidon does a great job...but it is hard to get a handle on the direction he wants the RO's to take...

A few issues back(of Front Sight), he said not to beat the shooter over the head with the rule book.  Withing the next issue or two, he was saying to follow the rule book to the letter (I am thinking of the 10 rounds in the mag for Production thread).  Now his advice is "if you let them".

I am geting confused.

[Vince Pinto]

I don't get my Front Sight until about 2 weeks after you guys. Do you mean to say the issue of "dummy" guns is the subject of John's article?

[Steve Anderson]

I'll probly skip the inert gun idea. I don't need the stress on match day, or the controversy. I do want to be "gamer of the day" for thinking of it...

Ron,

I understand your slippery slope of replicas, and one could argue that the "only one handgun on the competitor" rule could be invoked here to ban the prop, calling it a handgun for the purpose of the rule. (course, if is a handgun, you'll get DQ'd for touching it out of the safe zone.

Vince,

I thought loaded mags WERE prohibited in the safe area. Interesting...

Flex,

This wasn't inspired by FS, it was inspired by my forgotten target and subsequent failure to engage ding. I felt I hadn't burned in that stage, and felt an inert prop gun with sights would've  helped.

Steve

[Vince Pinto]

Steve,

It is a common misconception that loaded magazines are prohibited inside safety areas, but that is incorrect.

The DQ offence is "handling" ammunition or loaded magazines within a safety area. See Rule 10.3.14. The proposed rule revisions also extends the definition of ammo to include "training rounds, spring caps and empty cases"

Additionally the proposed revision to Rule 2.4.1 clarifies that while you are inside a safety area, your gun must be pointed in a safe direction (i.e. towards the safety area backstop and never uprange or at other people).

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 4:53 am on Aug. 28, 2002)

[38supPat]

Well, its been done. Many, many years ago, sorry not entirely an origional idea.

At the '92 North American Championships, I understand (as I was told by the RO that was present) two shooters (who will remain nameless...but are very well known) were observed using a water pistol (or similar non-gun) with a scope mounted to it while surveying the ranges before the match. The RO's call was that since there was no rule against it, then they could continue. But he stayed to observe and make sure no issues came up.

However this was during the early days of the scopes, now I doubt you would see any benefit from this practice. You are far better off learning to visualize the stage. If you can't do that, then even with the dummy gun you will likely still have problems on the stage.

[Vince Pinto]

Pat,

That's probably why they're called "dummy" guns

[davenelson]

I find that a magazine in hand is helpful when doing a walkthrough with ports and barrels to shoot through. Other people use a magazine during the walkthrough of every stage.

I think the use of a dummy-gun would violate the one handgun rule (5.2.7) unless the "smart-gun" was removed prior to the walkthrough.

[Vince Pinto]

Rule 5.2.7. only applies to "real" guns.

[Duane Thomas]

The problem is some new shooter's going to see the guy running around the stage with the "non-gun" and, even though it's bright red or blue, he's not going to realize it's not a real gun. Then, when they start running around with THEIR real gun during the walk-though, their explanation is going to be, "Well, I saw HIM do it." It sounds insane, but you know it'll happen.

[kbear38S]

I agree with Duanne, especially in consideration of the multi-colored grips being sold by STI, SV, and some aftermarket businesses. Recently I saw a picture of an entire gun powder coated in red or some other color. The bottom line is there's no easy way, at a glance, to confirm if the object is a real or fake gun.

[Flexmoney]

(edit) I took this photo out.  It seemed to big.

If any of the other are slowing you dial-up guys down, send me a message and I'll take them out to.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 7:10 pm on Aug. 29, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

And these, from Tripp:

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

The above guns are merely colourful but real, not inert. The original question was about guns such as those shown here and here.

These are clearly distinguishable from real guns.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 11:51 pm on Aug. 29, 2002)

[jhgtyre]

Those inert guns might be tough to differentiate from the real thing in low light conditions.  The night matches at the local club I attend are well lit but it is a far cry from daylight and the blue gun would be difficult to make out unless you were very close to it.

-jhgtyre

[Flexmoney]

Yep, the above guns are "shooters".  I'm just posting the pictures so people know what is out there.

This one is not a shooter (plugged barrel trainer, moving parts):

(Edited by Flexmoney at 12:26 pm on Aug. 29, 2002)