Unusual case separation 223

[kamikaze1a]

Load testing my AR with 16" barrel. Loaded 24.5gr Varget, 62gr FMJBT, previously reloaded LC brass... Brass full length sized and checked with go/no no case gage and moderate crimp to prevent setback. Took my first shot for the day and then went looking for shell. After some searching with no shell to be found, I looked at the rifle and wondered why there was a pistol case sitting in front of the open bolt. It wasn't a pistol case...it was a case separation.

I've seen and had case head separations but never had or seen a case separation like this. Not an actual photo, but I "borrowed" the link. Front half of my shell still in the chamber. My separation looks just like it though.

After some searching, it seems that other have had this type of separation with a 223 too. Comments made attributed it to excess headspace or overworking brass. Wondering though, wouldn't the case gage have told me that I had oversized the case? Aren't most case separations "case head" separations rather than so far up? And I don't think 24.5gr of Varget was excessive?

Primer was slightly flattened, probably more than what I would have liked to see but it could have flattened due to the separation... Maybe should have started with a lighter load. Thoughts please.

Edited April 20, 2010 by kamikaze1a

[D.Hayden]

I haven't seen a lot of them.. but all the ones I have seen.. look very close to that...

It could be just a bad peice of brass. It doesn't seem to happen often enough to have a pattern.

[el pres]

The one I had was almost exactly the same. Once fired LC brass, headspaced, chamber checked, etc.. Mine of coarse was in the last stage of a major match, no good. My primer however was not even slightly flatened and at a much hotter load then yours. You say this is the very first shot you have taken with these loads ? Were you compressing the powder as you were seating the bullet ? 24.5grs should not have any compression with Varget. Maybe pull a bullet and reweight the load but these things sometimes just happen...

[kamikaze1a]

All the case separations I've seen were case HEAD separations so parted near the case head like about 1/4" from the rim. I don't have a headspace gage so couldn't say that the chamber is good but the sized shells tested good with the case gage.

It surprised me to see pics of other's 223 shell separating at about the same spot so it might be something unique to the 223/5.56 brass. The really harsh part was that it was the first time I loaded that particular bullet, first time with that batch of brass and never loaded Wolf primers... I have loaded Varget with a heavier charge but never in LC brass. Maybe I should have changed only one component at a time. Would not have so many variables to wonder about.

As for the Varget, I am pretty confident of the charge weight and the level was low enough to be not compressed. I used a single stage press for rifle so I do visually check the charges prior to seating but I will pull one just to be sure.

[el pres]

LC is some the best brass out there. I have shot thousands of LC cases over and over again with no problems. Curious, what was your headstamp ? Mine was an 07...

[Guy Neill]

Apparently the case was pulled in half. A likely cause could be a dirty/fouled chamber where the front half of the case does not release as it should. The photo shows a blackened neck that could indicate fouling or debris interfering with extraction.

A thought, in any event.

Guy

[TeamGE]

I have had this type of separation before, from used brass that I had picked up for outside sources. When cases are shot, they stretch. This is why we have to case trim. If they are resized shorter then they need to be, or shot in longer then normal chambers, they stretch even more. The brass we trim off has to come from somewhere. It comes from the case walls. The case walls are thicker at the bottom and taper to thinner wall thickness right past half way to the shoulder. The thinner wall thickness from that point, to the shoulder, is where most of the shretching is going to happen, and thus the walls get thinner every time you shot it. When the case has had enough, it will separate in a perfect line like your picture. In stretched cases that are close to separating, if one where to inspect the inside of the case with a bore scope, you can see the ring forming where the separation is going to happen. Not much you can do to avoid this with used brass (besides good inspection), unless you reload only the brass from your chamber, and minimize your headspacing.

[smokshwn]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1643321&page=1

Edited April 20, 2010 by smokshwn

[el pres]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1643321&page=1

I agree with you and Beven however in my case it was once fired (I cut the crimp off) shiney new LC. I adjust my die to no more then .003 pushback from fired cases and thousands of rounds before and after with the same dimensions with no problems. I also have a bucket of a few thousand rounds of practice brass that I have loaded close to the same specs 8-12 times. All of the above comments are true if your having one split here and there I just think that somtimes its just a bad piece of brass and you move on ..

[TeamGE]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershi...=1643321&page=1

I agree with you and Beven however in my case it was once fired (I cut the crimp off) shiney new LC. I adjust my die to no more then .003 pushback from fired cases and thousands of rounds before and after with the same dimensions with no problems. I also have a bucket of a few thousand rounds of practice brass that I have loaded close to the same specs 8-12 times. All of the above comments are true if your having one split here and there I just think that somtimes its just a bad piece of brass and you move on ..

I agree, sometimes it is just bad brass. I wonder if maybe the brass you have could be a little too hard, either work hardened or from the factory, and doing some annealing would save them. We usually don't anneal that far down the case wall, but one could certainly do that.

[el pres]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1643321&page=1

Sure is a boisterous crowd over on the other forum. I like it !!

[RiggerJJ]

once fired LC brass almost always was fired in a military firearm. M16s are usually ok on brass. BUT sometimes we get stuff that was fired in a SAW, which pretty much destroys the brass by stretching it between the shoulder and the base. Careful inspection is needed unless you KNOW it wasn't fired in a SAW...

they are not all that unusual, just not seen that often because I think we are careful. I have had them on the practice range, and at matches. (I am much more careful now when inspecting brass, but just had one the other day during practice) I carry a broken case extractor at matches now, just in case... If it happens during a stage it can pretty much trash it for you, unless you can remove it quickly and move on.

jj

[kamikaze1a]

Seeing how high up on the shell this separated surprised me. All the case separations I've seen previously were much lower on the case but separating there seems to be the norm in the 223/5.56 from what I now see. Previously, I had used a small base sizer with RP and other commercial brass and then more recently a Redding conventional die with no problems. First try with this batch of LC brass and ouch...

What would be the best way to check my headspace? I did check the brass with a go/no go case length "die" and it checked out within specs so I don't think I pushed the shoulder back excessively. And partial sizing might be a problem in my AR. Should I invest in a go/no-go headspace gage, the ones that look like a cartridge without the bullet.

As for the SAW fired brass, do you run a pick on the inside of the shell?

[smokshwn]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1643321&page=1

Sure is a boisterous crowd over on the other forum. I like it !!

They used to not suffer fools very well but it is going downhill fast. The guy posting as Oily Owl has been gone and come back several times. Some may not like his delivery but I can't think of anybody with more rifle/reloading/caliber knowledge that is spot on and comes from experience not theory.

[jrb06]

Charge weight seems O.K. whenever I have seen this it comes from the case sticking and the bolt/extractor trying to rip the casing out. The thing with Vatrget and having the short barrel the gas port and tube are closere to the bolt carrier. The pressure spike hits the port sooner and causes the bolt to start coming back before the pressure has dropped enough and the case is wedge in the chamber. Add headspace not correct and this could be what caused this. Thin brass wall and just one of those Murphy Law momments.

[kamikaze1a]

Once that case extractor tool arrives and provided it works as advertised, I'll feel a lot more confident firing more of those LC loads. The only other time I had a case separation was with a bolt action 243. It was a pain to get it out. It entailed pouring molten...I want to say lead but it wasn't, it was some other low melting point metal, into the broken shell from the breech. I first cleaned the inside of the shell and then plugged the neck of the shell with tin foil to allow the melt to fill the broken shell. After cooling, tap it out with a rod down the barrel. It was a real pain in the behind but 35 years ago, that's all that was available... Lot of cool new fangled stuff around these days...

[kamikaze1a]

A question about checking headspace. If I use a go/no go gage, since most AR's are actually chambered in 5.56, should I use a 223 gage or 5.56 gage?

[kamikaze1a]

Checked out some stuff lastnight. Other commercial brass previously fired, no evidence of stretching using bent wire check. That included brass full length sized with SB and standard dies. Also, used my go/no go case length gage on fired brass and the fired brass spec'd out in the gage (not resized but as is after firing).

Question; would the fired brass fitting the go/no go case length gage indicate that the problem is not excessive headspace? And indicate that the case separation was NOT related to my sizing or chamber dimensions? So was probably due to some other problem such as some had suggested, bad brass, dirty chamber etc...

Edited April 22, 2010 by kamikaze1a

[TeamGE]

Checked out some stuff lastnight. Other commercial brass previously fired, no evidence of stretching using bent wire check. That included brass full length sized with SB and standard dies. Also, used my go/no go case length gage on fired brass and the fired brass spec'd out in the gage (not resized but as is after firing).

Question; would the fired brass fitting the go/no go case length gage indicate that the problem is not excessive headspace? And indicate that the case separation was NOT related to my sizing or chamber dimensions? Such as some had suggested, bad brass, dirty chamber etc...

I would agree. If your fired brass checks good in your case gauge, then it is safe to say that your chamber is head spaced correctly. It may be good practice to use a case gauge on unknown acquired fired brass to weed out potential bad head spaced cases.

[kamikaze1a]

Thanks for that...I found a good deal on Forster go/no go headspace gages for 556 Nato. Pretty nice fellow from WI has them for sale. Hopefully everything will check out...

[David Sinko]

Be advised that the Mini-14 is also hard on brass. My brother's department has a few Minis and they are prone to separating the Black Hills remanufactured ammo. I don't know if Black Hills uses brass that has been shot out of a SAW, but when he gave me his brass I noticed what looked like a few pieces of .38 Super Comp. It was actually 5.56 that had been cut cleanly in half. Some other cases had the bright ring around the case and and a few were right on the verge of separation. Their AR-15 type rifles don't do this with the same ammo. It might be that they just have one particularly bad Mini that is prone to doing this, but does the Mini not operate just like an M-14 or M1A? They are notorious brass eaters too. Maybe you want to avoid any brass that you know has been shot out of a Mini.

Dave Sinko

[kamikaze1a]

Not sure what the brass was shot through previously. I did check some of the brass, after the fact, for stretching or separation clues with the wire pick method. All I checked were fine...

The broken case extractor arrived and worked as advertised and then gave the bore/chamber a good cleaning. Will be testing the same ammo this Sunday...hopefully no more separations.

[kamikaze1a]

Okay, followup to my post. Go/no go chamber headspace gages show chamber good. Firing the rest of the rounds from the batch that separated went without a hitch. Pretty amazing that the first round from that batch separated...what's the odds of that happening?

So...I guess as some had suggested, it was a fluke. But the 24.5grs of Varget seems to be about the most I am comfortable with judging by the primer. The primers were well flattened but not cratered. New Chrono should be arriving soon since my old one died the same day I had the separation...when it rains it pours I guess. My second dead Chrony so this time trying the Pro Chrono...

Edited May 3, 2010 by kamikaze1a

[DyNo!]

It is most likely due to too much headspace. Beven got it right. Sometimes it can happen over multiple loadings or if the headspace is really long it can happen over a single loading.

Some discussion and pics here.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1643321&page=1

Sure is a boisterous crowd over on the other forum. I like it !!

I had one recently but I attribute it to the violent extraction process of the HK53:

That's the case that got pulled out of my 53 that got loaded one too many times. The bolt didn't close on this one at all.

Edited May 3, 2010 by DyNo!

[WDB]

Whats the year on the headstamp? Couple years ago we were we were shooting 07 and had quite a few of them in the summer.

Haven't seen any with 08 or 09 yet.

Edited May 3, 2010 by WDB