What the heck's the deal?

[Wild Gene]

What the heck is the deal here? I am shooting production, and am a newer shooter, but I went to a match and shot a great stage, time was about a 17, no question there, BUT, I hit all my targets (no misses), did not hit any "no shoots" and I still had a penalty when the scores were posted on the website. I can't figure out why? Now, I am not an old vet to this game, just old, but for the life of me, it seems like this will happen everytime I shoot.

So my question is, what am I not seeing or doing or is it just shooting the 9mm they penalize you 10 right off the git-go, or what? I know it is just a local match, but do you guys take a picture of your score sheet after each stage or something so you can see how this stuff plugs into the scoring program or what?

Thanks,

Gene

[Corey]

are you following the score keeper to each target or just assuming you got all yoru hits? i always follow and watch each target get scored and it actually did save me once so far b/c i saw a hit in the corner they did not see and pointed it out. got me a D instead of an M hit

some clubs (maybe only for big matches) have carbon sheets they give out and almost everywhere ive been you had to at least sign the score sheet, even if you dont get a copy.

[Lee King]

There are "procedural" penalties too. For example a foot fault, or an extra shot in virginia count etc.

[Dan Hefta]

You need to look at your scoresheet and double check everything everytime you shoot. If you feel that you were penalized and it was an error, contact the MD for the match and he/she will take a closer look at your scores and they may fix it for you. Don't get disscouraged, this is all volunteer and mistakes do happen.

[old506]

Describe the stage.

[Wild Gene]

Thanks so far.

It was a three magazine stage for me, but I did not miss. My score sheet showed the correct number of hits everywhere, and while they were not all "A's", they were all good hits.

I did not follow through the entire stage for the count, but the score sheet said what it should, all the steel, and 18 alpha's and 2 charlies or what ever it was.

I guess my question really is, does anyone keep a personal score sheet also (and I assume that is a Yes)? How or what do you do? Does anyone just take a picture of their score sheet on each stage (would that look too wierd or untrusting) with their phone or camera or something?

I am not as concerned about winning, but want to know how I compare to other shooters and to see how I progress, and if I am doing something wrong, and I can't figure out what, how do I get better?

Yeech.

Gene

[ima45dv8]

....or is it just shooting the 9mm they penalize you 10 right off the git-go, or what?

Of course! (just kidding)

I don't know if I'd go so far as to take pictures of my scoresheets, but there's nothing stopping you from doing so if it helps you build trust in who's doing the scoring. Alternately you could contact the person scoring the match and ask them to recheck your scores on that stage. I've had similar requests many times.

When I find things the shooter didn't recall being on their scoresheet, I take a picture of that scoresheet and email it to them (I don't have a scanner).

[Nik Habicht]

Most likely culprits are a procedural or a keyboard error. Assume 5 stages and 50 competitors, that's 250 scores to enter. Keyboard errors happen, and they're not always caught....

Match directors/statisticians should be able and willing to take another look, both to be certain the score is correct, and to let you know what the scoresheet indicated....

[Wild Gene]

Thank you, yes, keyboard keys have been knowm to mvoe aeound!

I don't think anyone is being dishonest. I do think I will start packing my camera and take pictures of my score sheets.

It sounds like there is not soomething I am not aware of, just an error on input or my recollection of the stage.

Gene

[CHA-LEE]

When you look at your scores posted on USPSA you can see what the penalties are. Look at the overall results and your USPSA number should be a "Link". Click on your USPSA number and it will show the scoring breakdown of all your stages. Within that it will show your hits, penalties and what kind, time, HF, etc. Check that out to see where the "Penalty" came from. If its not accurate then contact the score keeper to up date it.

But as others have said. its really up to you to validate that your score is accurate after shooting the stage and before you sign the score sheet. This only takes a few seconds to do before signing the score sheet. Get in the habit of doing it.

[bdpaz]

Not to (intentionally) be an ass, but I think you should have asked the match staff before posting here. This is the kind of thing that can get twisted around into "Wild Gene posted on BE.com that you always screw up his scores", then they're mad at you but you won't know why (because you did not say that) - and then it all turns to crap .

[ima45dv8]

Not to (intentionally) be an ass, but I think you should have asked the match staff before posting here. This is the kind of thing that can get twisted around into "Wild Gene posted on BE.com that you always screw up his scores", then they're mad at you but you won't know why (because you did not say that) - and then it all turns to crap .

A very valid point and one I wish I could have made as eloquently.

Gene, the reason I suggested contacting the person doing the scoring was for just this reason. It could have been a simple mistake on their part. Or yours. The taking-pictures-of-scoresheets conveys some serious mistrust with what's going to happen to your scores once you leave the match.

Give them a chance to clear things up.

[Wild Gene]

Hey, no one is accusing anyone of any impropriety, you are reading more into it. I believe I've said that more than one time prior to this post. I just asked what you guys do to keep track of your scores at a match, and if there is something about being scored minor that I am not aware of. I also don't think of anyone as being an ass, not yet anyway.

That is the problem with these boards, you can not always get a sense of the tone of a conversation.

I shoot with some really great people, at a couple great ranges, and I appreciate what they do. They have all been very helpful.

Take care and thanks again,

Gene

[bdpaz]

That is the problem with these boards, you can not always get a sense of the tone of a conversation.

That's my point !

I'd just suggest that at the next match you make a point to talk to the powers-that-be and make sure they understand what you were asking.

[professor]

As someone who does the scoring for our local matches, I can add a couple of points that weren't mentioned.

First off, the club scorekeeper is supposed to retain all score sheets for two years after the completion of a match. I usually dump stuff that's older than 2 years at the beginning of the season. The point is, you can ask the scorekeeper if you can see your original score sheet whenever you have a question like this.

Second, and more important for every shooter, is that the scorekeeper can't make up stuff. You said that you had all your hits, and I assume you saw that on your score sheet, along with the time(s) for the stage. The point is, the scorer might have marked only Alpha on one of your targets, and left the second hit blank. The scorekeeper would have to [or should have] marked this as a Mike, without having evidence on the score sheet that it was a Charlie.

For another example, a lot of the classifiers have No Shoots next to scoring targets, on a Virginia count stage. A lot of ROs will record the Alpha and a NoShoot, but forget about the Mike caused when the bullet hit the NoShoot instead of the scoring target. The scorekeeper will rectify the count on that target by putting in the Mike. If you made up the shot to avoid the Mike, then you'd get a Penalty for the Extra Shot. The score sheet should include space to report what a Penalty was due to. [Extra shot, extra hit, foot fault, FTE (failure to engage), or whatever].

As others mentioned, check out your scores on the "Local Matches" section of the USPSA site, as that will report exactly what the scorekeeper put in for every stage, and penalties are broken down.

I urge the ROs at my club to do the column additions for each stage, to verify that all the targets have been scored, and that nothing is missing. That makes it easier for me to verify the results when I'm entering the data later.

And there's nothing preventing you from asking to copy the summarized results from your score sheet before they get turned in to stats. That way, if something is missing, you can request a reshoot or adjustment or whatever. Sometimes, it's just getting a clarification of the sloppy writing of the stage time.

Keep at it. This is a great sport.

[Nik Habicht]

Second, and more important for every shooter, is that the scorekeeper can't make up stuff. You said that you had all your hits, and I assume you saw that on your score sheet, along with the time(s) for the stage. The point is, the scorer might have marked only Alpha on one of your targets, and left the second hit blank. The scorekeeper would have to [or should have] marked this as a Mike, without having evidence on the score sheet that it was a Charlie.

For another example, a lot of the classifiers have No Shoots next to scoring targets, on a Virginia count stage. A lot of ROs will record the Alpha and a NoShoot, but forget about the Mike caused when the bullet hit the NoShoot instead of the scoring target. The scorekeeper will rectify the count on that target by putting in the Mike. If you made up the shot to avoid the Mike, then you'd get a Penalty for the Extra Shot. The score sheet should include space to report what a Penalty was due to. [Extra shot, extra hit, foot fault, FTE (failure to engage), or whatever].

Stan,

by entering mikes where there are none, isn't the scorekeeper making things up? Isn't the right call to enter a non-penalty mike?

9.7.4 A score sheet signed by both a competitor and a Range Officer is conclusive evidence that the course of fire has been completed, and that the time, scores and penalties recorded on the score sheet, are accurate and uncontested. The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add

procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

9.7.5 If a score sheet is found to have insufficient or excess entries, or if the time has not been recorded on the score sheet, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire.

9.7.6 In the event that a reshoot is not possible or permissible for any reason, the following actions will prevail:

9.7.6.1 If the time is missing, the competitor will receive a zero score for the course of fire.

9.7.6.2 If insufficient hits or misses have been recorded on the score sheet, the hits and misses which have been recorded will be deemed complete and conclusive.

9.7.6.3 If excessive hits or misses have been recorded on the score sheet, the highest value scoring hits recorded will be used.

9.7.6.4 Procedural penalties recorded on the score sheet will be deemed complete and conclusive, except where Rule 8.6.2 applies.

9.7.6.5 If the identity of the competitor is missing from a score sheet, it must be referred to the Range Master, who must take whatever action he deems necessary to rectify the situation.

So, if a line for a paper target indicates a single Alpha hit, and no entries in B,C,D, or M (and even if there's a NS entry on that line), you can't assess a penalty carrying Mike -- only a Non-penalty Mike. (That way you give credit for what's recorded, and EZW can reconcile hits, misses, and NPMs to come up with the correct total....)

[Wild Gene]

As someone who does the scoring for our local matches, I can add a couple of points that weren't mentioned.

First off, the club scorekeeper is supposed to retain all score sheets for two years after the completion of a match. I usually dump stuff that's older than 2 years at the beginning of the season. The point is, you can ask the scorekeeper if you can see your original score sheet whenever you have a question like this.

Keep at it. This is a great sport.

Regarding point 1, WOW, I had no idea. That is really interesting.

On the second point, so if I could see my score sheet now, and for some unknown reason I "miss-remembered", well then, I guess I would really look like the "ass" bdpaz was talking about earlier, now wouldn't I. It would be way easier to look at my own records and say "well I'll be damned, I guess I was wrong".

The interesting thing I seem to be finding out here is that people do not keep personal records of their stage scores at matches. Is that a correct assumption? I also realize just how critical it is to really check your score card when you sign it.

On the final point, yes, this is a GREAT sport. The classification system is very ingenious, and the rules are very concise for the most part. I am really hooked and loving it. The clubs have been great, and the shooters at the range and here have been awesome.

Thanks again,

WG

[Flyin40]

If you really want to have your own copy just take your sheet and sit down and copy everything down on a piece of paper. Just let the RO know what your doing. Just tell him your keeping track of all your hits so you can see how you are improving. Just don't tally or even scribble on the score sheet. If you don't feel comfortable have one of the members of your squad watch you. Alot of guys do this. I usually watch what percentage of points I shoot at a match. If the match is 1000pt match I want to shoot at least 950 pts or 95% of available pts. That means I shouldn't have penalties or D's. That tells me alot about my shooting when I go over my scores.

Personally I just remember my score. Say a course is 32 rounds worth 160pts. Say I shot 7C's, thats a score of 153 out of 160 or the way I remember is I was 7pts down. So all you need to remember is how many pts down on each stage and keep a running tally. If they do mess up at least you know what your correct pts were and can figure your Hit Factor and see where you really finished.

I don't care if someone screws up my score at a local match. I only made 3 or 4 local matches last yr and my score was screwed up twice. I look at it like this. Those guys are volunteering and I'm not, I don't have the time. Plus I always remember my penalties and for the most part points down.

Another thing to remember is when your looking at the score sheet if there is a penalty they usually don't tally the penalites until the end. They keep a running tally beside the box and add it up at the end. So you might not see a penalty marked because they forgot to tally it and put it in the box. Ask the RO for the clipboard so you can actually hold your score sheet and look at it. Don't try to look at it while the RO is trying to do other things. Also don't wait to do it either. You need to do it right when your done shooting.

Walk with RO look at and hear him call out all your hits. If you can't ask a squad mate to watch them score it. Before you sign it go over the sheet

Flyin

[Jake Di Vita]

Also keep in mind you do get your own copy for each stage of a major match.

If I were you, I'd forget it and just pay better attention next time. Follow the RO who is calling out the scoring, add up your shots on the scoresheet yourself, double check your time (is what you heard the same as what's on paper?), check for any penalties, and you're done. This should be done for every stage.

[ima45dv8]

Hey, no one is accusing anyone of any impropriety, you are reading more into it. I believe I've said that more than one time prior to this post. I just asked what you guys do to keep track of your scores at a match, and if there is something about being scored minor that I am not aware of. I also don't think of anyone as being an ass, not yet anyway.

That is the problem with these boards, you can not always get a sense of the tone of a conversation.

I shoot with some really great people, at a couple great ranges, and I appreciate what they do. They have all been very helpful.

Take care and thanks again,

Gene

Sorry, Gene. I didn't mean to misread. I was just saying "IF". No offense meant.

You're right about the written word coming across differently than we'd understand in person.

[ima45dv8]

The interesting thing I seem to be finding out here is that people do not keep personal records of their stage scores at matches. Is that a correct assumption? I also realize just how critical it is to really check your score card when you sign it.

I admit that I'm spoiled. The Usual Suspects I generally squad with are good at this stuff and I usually don't go downrange during the scoring unless I want to practice verifying with ROs or they call me to point out a Mike or NoShoot. Locally we don't hardly ever sign scoresheets for Level I matches. Maybe we should.

On the final point, yes, this is a GREAT sport. The classification system is very ingenious, and the rules are very concise for the most part. I am really hooked and loving it. The clubs have been great, and the shooters at the range and here have been awesome.

Same here.

[aztecdriver]

Here's another concept that has been mentioned elsewhere on the board - Keep a range diary in your shooting bag and make it part of your routine to simply log your scores for yourself.

They can be a simple line for each stage - and it's not about a confidence in the scoring - but a way of looking at progress. All problems solved - and you get a very useful training tool to boot!

[Wild Gene]

Hey, no one is accusing anyone of any impropriety, you are reading more into it. I believe I've said that more than one time prior to this post. I just asked what you guys do to keep track of your scores at a match, and if there is something about being scored minor that I am not aware of. I also don't think of anyone as being an ass, not yet anyway.

That is the problem with these boards, you can not always get a sense of the tone of a conversation.

I shoot with some really great people, at a couple great ranges, and I appreciate what they do. They have all been very helpful.

Take care and thanks again,

Gene

Sorry, Gene. I didn't mean to misread. I was just saying "IF". No offense meant.

You're right about the written word coming across differently than we'd understand in person.

ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE TAKEN! NONE INTENDED, and I sincerely apologize if anyone took offense to how I came across too...

This has been a very good discussion. There are aspects of the game you just can't get unless you are able to ask someone that knows. That is the value of these boards. That's why I donated to the forum.

Thank you,

wg

[Wild Gene]

Here's another concept that has been mentioned elsewhere on the board - Keep a range diary in your shooting bag and make it part of your routine to simply log your scores for yourself.

They can be a simple line for each stage - and it's not about a confidence in the scoring - but a way of looking at progress. All problems solved - and you get a very useful training tool to boot!

"and it's not about a confidence in the scoring - but a way of looking at progress."

Aztecdriver, EXACTLY!

Basically, I guess I need to start a range diary. I will search that specifically. Thank you.

[mda]

Like most have said it is up to you, the shooter, to make sure the RO scores it right.

To your original question, Yes some shooters keep track of the scores during the match, whatever method works for you, write it down, scan it, take a picture, no RO will take offense. If they do, just say you want a hard copy record for your training/match diary because being an old fart you can't remember Sh-t.

MDA