Mayonaise Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 That's the point. There are many great micro brews and imports that have an alcohol content higher than the GA limit of 6% that we can't buy. I don't think "shine" alcohol content was ever a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 Now that I think of it, you also wrote an article on the NW SSC long before I ever shot one of those. Yep. I'm sure I'll shoot another some day. I really enjoyed the one I shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 12, 2004 Share Posted February 12, 2004 rmills: I know a lot of guys talk about a class higher than master because making master on the IDPA classifier is a piece of cake. I could shoot master in CDP while I was still a B class limited 10 shooter. There is a huge difference between top dawgs and entry level masters. Another classification would better group shooters according to ability. OTOH, I think the all of the classes should be eliminated and everyone just shoot heads up. That's another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Rather than add classes, just make the classifier a part of matches. I know this is what they do in IPSC, but it works. IDPA makes you shoot the classifier once. Then if you never shoot against more than 8 shooters at a sanctioned match, Usually the case in ESP, you can sandbag and win every time. I like the classifier. The problem is there is no incentive to shoot it very good except for yourself. This being a game, too many people lay back or just don't shoot it in order to stay at a lower level. There is also a penalty for someone having a good day and moving up to a class they can't compete in. Most people try to win at matches. If you make the classifier a part of a match, they are less likely to blow a match on purpose in order to stay in a lower class. The draw back is we would have to set up a database similar to IPSC. Just a thought. All you have to do is look at match scores from month to month and you can tell who needs to be moved up and down. Speaking of down, there needs to be a way to move down also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I much prefer field courses to shooting the classifier. I think the classifier is very boring. But then I think all standards are boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 Rather than add classes, just make the classifier a part of matches. The problem with that is the classifier is a 90-shot, 13 string affair. Even if you break it down into three different "stages" in three different bays, you're still looking at a SERIOUS bottleneck at the classifier stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 What do I need to say about IDPA to get somebody to buy me some beer??? Your mother wears IDPA vests Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 Duane, It would not be that bad to add it to matches. My next match will have two stages that are close to classifier strings. on one the shooter will back up while putting 3 rounds in each target, then move to a window and 3 rounds into 3 more targets. On another stage the shooter will shoot around a barricade then move to a barrel. Then move to a wall. To use classifier stages, we would just need to have times for each string. There is another thread here talking about just that. Then put 2 or three strings in each match. You would not need to use all of the strings. Something similar to IPSC would work. 6 pairs of classifier stages could be used. There is another option a friend mentioned. Base everyone on percentages. compare all shooters in a national databse. The to 10% are masters. The next 10% are experts and so on. either of these would help to eliminate sand baggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 scandog While grading everyone by national % might be the most logical solution to sandbaggers, it will not happen. Too close to what USPSA does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjobart Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 I think that part of the beauty if IDPA is the Classifier course and the IDPA classification system itself. I would not want to see it changed. I do agree that there needs to be a Grand Master class added in IDPA to distinguish the Letham/Sevigny skill level from the person who just practiced the Classifier 500 times and barely made Master. This IDPA system does not lend itself to promoting sandbagging any more than the USPSA classification system does. Masterbagging is also as much a problem but there the shooter penalizes themself. As one who is frequently accused of being a sandbagger, I have given this issue a lot of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Bart, I was not even thinking about you Think about this. In IDPA, you only have to shoot a classifier one time. Clubs have to hold at least one classifier a year, but you don't have to shoot it. There is nothing wrong with the clasifier itself. I think it is a good test. That assumes the shooters want to do good and move up. We all know that is not always the case. I shoot the classifier about once a month to see how I am doing. I can tell when I am not practicing enough. The problem is if I can't make expert for several months, do I get to move back to SharpShoter? If not, what is the incentive to move up after shooting Expert once? Bragging rights? There are problems with the classifier system. If we could only cross the USPSA database with the IDPA classifier, I think we would have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 You would not need to use all of the strings. Something similar to IPSC would work. 6 pairs of classifier stages could be used. So, what, you have people shooting partial classifiers and you're not classified until you've put together all the pieces? Or you give them a classification after six "pieces" like USPSA? Really, no offense, I think you're on the wrong track here. One of IDPA's selling points is the simplicity of the classification system, and the ease with which a new shooter can get classified. Fire the classifier once, boom, you're classified. Turning IDPA's straightforward system into USPSA's convoluted, complicated and - for some people - intimidating system seems to me like a total non-starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Maybe I am missing something here, but I didn't think there is any reason to "sandbag" in the IDPA since there are no prizes. If someone wants to sandbag in the IDPA just to see his name at the top of a class, let him/ her try to feel good about whooping up on lesser shooters if they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Maybe I am missing something here, but I didn't think there is any reason to "sandbag" in the IDPA since there are no prizes. If someone wants to sandbag in the IDPA just to see his name at the top of a class, let him/ her try to feel good about whooping up on lesser shooters if they can. Right on the money! IDPA does not promote prize tables. If vendors wish to donate for publicity, great, if not, no big deal. If shooters wish to sandbag, no problem. If one is always winning SSP Novice class, they are the ones who have to deal with the embarrassment. We shoot because we enjoy shooting and are more interested in improving our shooting skills than in "buying advantages" to form an elitist competition group where everyone needs mags that hold 30 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 rmills I think you are reading something into it that isn't really there. It is not an elitist group who needs 30 round mags, just folks doing it a different way. Only a small part of the USPSA shooters are Open shooters. They are good folks too, and just like the gear they shoot with, just like you do. Try to get past that mindset and envision them as "just shooters" who like different gear, rather like shotgunners who might choose an autoloader rather than a double or a pump. I speak only for myself, but I don't know of any Open shooters who disdain IDPA shooters just because they choose to shoot a game with a gun that they like and enjoy shooting. I certainly don't know them all, but feel sure they would admire your skill with your chosen pistol, just like I do. Try not to judge all USPSA shooters by what you may have encountered from a few... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Very nice post tightloop. I am an open, limited, production, L10 uspsa shooter AND esp, ssp IDPA shooter. it's just different games with different guns, no biggie. as far as the sand bagging, to a degree it takes place in both sports, but I do think it happens a little more in IDPA, because, in idpa you are not required to shoot the classifier after the first time that you shoot it, at least make it an required once a year or something. Some people do like getting the ribbons, or what ever the club gives out, if anything. And people cheating (which is what I call sandbagging) are taking the prize from someone that deserves the prize. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hi Tightloop: Here in our area, the atmosphere that I mentioned exists. It seemed to start about 2 years ago and has continued and grown ever since. However with that said, I sure that there are other area's of the country where USPSA matches gleen with the same friendly atmosphere that we see here in our IPDA matches. In shooting USPSA matches for 15 years, I can remember a better, more friendly environment. What happened? Who can say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I am sorry the attitude has gone to hell in your area, but remember that just one guy can make a difference. Try to be that guy. Hope it improves for you. Have a Great one. Tloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 You da man, Mr Sunshine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted February 21, 2004 Author Share Posted February 21, 2004 The WV IDPA State match solved this "problem" last year by requiring each shooter to have a recent (within the last year) classifier score. If the shooter didn't then they shot with the Masters. I think they got tired of guys coming to the local club match and seeing that the match of the day was the classifier and just deciding to not shoot that day. You want to shoot the match then shoot the classifier.......end of story! FYI, the WV State Match is a very well organized match with great stages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 The WV IDPA State match solved this "problem" last year by requiring each shooter to have a recent (within the last year) classifier score. If the shooter didn't then they shot with the Masters. I think they got tired of guys coming to the local club match and seeing that the match of the day was the classifier and just deciding to not shoot that day. You want to shoot the match then shoot the classifier.......end of story! FYI, the WV State Match is a very well organized match with great stages! LMAO So it "Solved" people sandbagging by makeing them shoot a classifier???? They are sandbagging but they cant sandbag the classifier If you REALLY believe that I have some Prime swamp land to sell you. Now above and beyond that I think there were some people that got to shoot with the masters becasue they didnt know about this "requirement"! What I heard anyway. Last but not least my club doesnt sign your card unless you move up. So I shot the classifier last year, but didnt move up so my card still reads EXP. for SSP and ESP and SS for SSR and it has for a LONG time. It wasnt ever signed as CDP Master but I dont suppose thats a problem. The other problem is I doubt anyone knows all the people at all the clubs around the US so Just out of my curiosity if I signed my card SS and put some initials beside it (what I did as an officer of my club when I signed them) Or even if it was a name, Just how would you know in WV????? Somehow I dont think it really "solved" the problem. I think it did create some new ones though. The only way the sandbagging "problem" (if there is one as big as some think) will be solved is for a natl database to be formed like IPSC has (cant believe I just said that) and that wont "solve" the problem either. Some people want to play that way. Ive heard many people say they want a trophy for 1st place in each division.... to me the problem is the shooters that should be two classes above where they are. Look at the Nats scores from last year and you will see what I mean. I think there was at least one in CDP, SS IIRC and others were noticable too. I also think there should be a class above Master, its starting to get a little crowded in CDP,ESP,SSP. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 IPSC Classifiers. Kinda funny to see everyone kicking my butt on every stage BUT the classifier and mysteriously on those stages I often beat many if not most in all classes while shooting production. Of course I am still not an IPSC memeber so I dont care and that can be a good thing. Oh yea, IPSC "Classifiers" can be sandbagged too! Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Larry, I have seen you shoot those classifiers, and you did smoke them. But remember most of the IPSC shooters get classifier anxiety when they see it and choke. Some of them sandbag, but most of them just plain ole choke on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Larry: If you are thumping on Master class Open and Limited shooters with your Production gun maybe you need to give some thought to joining USPSA. Nothing wrong with crossing over into another discipline and stealing all the cookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted February 24, 2004 Author Share Posted February 24, 2004 So sorry, I guess the word "solved" was too strong. It did however make people shoot the classifier within the last year. If you don't move up, you still had to have had the card signed to show that the classifier was shot. If someone wants to sign their own card.... we'll I don't think I even have to voice my opinion on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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