C Sims Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Here are a couple question that I recently asked HQ with the responses also. 1. Can a Glock 35 with a 9mm barrel be used in SSP ? HQ's response: "If you change the caliber of the Glock, it is no longer the same model. Glock does not offer the 35 in 9 mm. As a result, this modification is not legal for IDPA competition." 2. If my Glock 34 breaks during a match can I finish the match with my Glock 17 and receive a score? HQ's response: "Since the 17 and 34 are the same type of gun (Glock), the same action and the same caliber, you can use the 17 to finish the match if the 34 breaks." Thanks, Dru Nichols IDPA Administrative Coordinator My Opinion: On #1: A G35 with a 9mm barrel has no advantages over a 34 so should be legal and allowed. On #2: I totally agree with HQ on this, I had previously read in a post somewhere where this wasn't the case. I guess we know where HQ stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Today at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 IDPA HQ: Did anyone ever come up with a reason for calling all .40's MINOR when you CAN'T buy factory ammo that is not MAJOR??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 It's probably the same one that moved 10mm into ESP. Try to find some of that in minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Anyone heard any information about the rumored update to the IDPA rulebook?? I've heard talk about it for going on two years now, but haven't seen any hard evidence that a change is in the works. Its pretty easy to keep up with ongoing/proposed rule book changes in IPSC/USPSA. I guess that's another way IDPA is trying to not be like IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Did anyone ever come up with a reason for calling all .40's MINOR when you CAN'T buy factory ammo that is not MAJOR??? I didn't think IDPA had Major or Minor. There's only the power factor floor, which is different for CDP than for the other divisions. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Well it may not be what most consider "factory ammo" but Atlanta Arms commercial reloads in .40 were minor through several competitor's guns; not that I would advocate relying on commercial reloads in a match . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 There is no "Major" or "Minor" criteria in IDPA. Only a "PF Floor" for divisions. SSP, SSR, and ESP are all 125. CDP is 165. In IDPA the focus is on shooting ability, not on how one can reload to achieve a softer feel. If one wishes to shoot 10mm, they can do so in SSP or ESP. If you want to load them hot, go ahead, if not, then don't. It's the shooter's choice. It's all about shooting, not equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Anyone heard any information about the rumored update to the IDPA rulebook?? I've heard talk about it for going on two years now, but haven't seen any hard evidence that a change is in the works.Its pretty easy to keep up with ongoing/proposed rule book changes in IPSC/USPSA. I guess that's another way IDPA is trying to not be like IPSC. One of the principles of IDPA is a stable set of rules. In regards to the recent rule book review, it's purpose was not to create new rules but to clarify existing ones. A lot of work went into the process with input from Area Coordinators and SO's. Once HQ approves, it will be published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Publish date, is that the date the day after Bill Wilson dies??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Comments like that shouldn't be made, IMO! I might have might not agree with every rule in the little rule book, but I don't make it personal! As a side note, I'm sure glad Mr. Wilson and the others started IDPA and gave us a "sport" to shoot. The more shooting the better, IMO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 There are some really great comebacks I could make; but since this is the newer, kinder, gentler Tightloop, I will just say you are probably right, and let it go. I will however be watching and waiting till the amended version of the LGB comes out. Then we'll see what we have and if the wait was worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 While I have your respective ears...I'd like to take this opportunity make sure that eveybody knows that these forums are for sharing information to help one another improve on our shooting. There is NO place on these boards for the sillyness that is IDPA vs. IPSC Maybe we can realize that we are ALL shooters, and strive to be helpful to our competitive shooting brothers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I have the attitude that I won't bitch unless I'll let you fix it. IDPA is having growing pains, it needs fixing. I WANT IDPA to be a better sport than the "rough draft" we have now. As to there Being no major / minor; there sure is - SA Major is CDP, SA Minor is ESP. If it is so "REAL" why is there not a "major" for guys wanting to shoot a DA gun in .40 or .45? And why would you punish a guy for shooting factory ammo, like you do in ESP where EVERYTHING except 9mm makes 165+ from the factory? I know you are going to say something dogmatic like "advantage of more rounds", or really logical like "because the great fathers told us so". It comes back to course design. Think your courses through and accept a little help or constructive criticism, and it won't matter how many rounds are in the gun. Please let IDPA learn and evolve... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I would like to see IDPA reward a shooter using 165 PF loads. Keep the .5 and 1.5 for Major. For minor change it to .6 and 1.75 sec. I would like to see a hit on a non-threat or miss increased to 10 sec. I think this scoring would prevent IDPA from becoming a "hose fest" while rewarding a 165PF. This would still allow CDP to be a .45ACP class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 In IDPA the focus is on shooting ability, not on how one can reload to achieve a softer feel. If one wishes to shoot 10mm, they can do so in SSP or ESP. If you want to load them hot, go ahead, if not, then don't. It's the shooter's choice.It's all about shooting, not equipment. Let's talk about a bury you head in the sand attitude. I think it is very much about equipment. Being one of those 10mm shooters that finds out when his new LGB showed up that he had moved from CDP to ESP in an instant, I am still a little sore about it. The revolver guys got almost two years to go from 5in guns to 4in. I didn't. And what makes you think that 165 pf 180gr 10mm is the equal to 125pf 9mm when it is not equal to 165pf 200gr .45ACP? And let's not get into the BS about Rob saying that 10mm is a gamer round in CDP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Honestly, I feel that arbitrarily SETTING hit factor at .5 seconds per point stifles competition. That being said, and reguardless of Duane's "tests" to the contrary, harder kicking guns really are harder to shoot fast. There is absolutely no reason to shoot the most popular LEO and PD caliber (.40 S&W) in the supposedly "real world " IDPA. Separate thought; The slow .5/second also encourages shooters to visually "score" targets as they shoot, a bad habit all the way around, but when you can "beat" the .5/second pace, you can even make up a "down 1" fast enough to improve your score. That is a "training scar" waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Honestly, I feel that arbitrarily SETTING hit factor at .5 seconds per point stifles competition. That being said, and reguardless of Duane's "tests" to the contrary, harder kicking guns really are harder to shoot fast. There is absolutely no reason to shoot the most popular LEO and PD caliber (.40 S&W) in the supposedly "real world " IDPA.Separate thought; The slow .5/second also encourages shooters to visually "score" targets as they shoot, a bad habit all the way around, but when you can "beat" the .5/second pace, you can even make up a "down 1" fast enough to improve your score. That is a "training scar" waiting to happen. 1. Hard to "visually score"targets when they are clothed. 2.no reason to shoot a 40 ? Tell that to the competitors who carry a 40 for a street/duty gun. 3. Please let IDPA learn and evolve... evolve into what? turn it into a watered down version of IPSC? Like it isn't going there already! At the original stages of IDPA ,there was discussion about having Major/Minor scoring - but to simplify things a .5 second penalty per point down was put in place . How many of you remember the original IDPA target? The '0' portion of CM was significantly lower than it is now. Pick a division you want to shoot in. Shoot the classifier. Do a match or two . it isn't that difficult IDPA is not the end all GAME for everyone - there are other venues to pursue if you aren't satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Comments in regards to "Hit Factor" do not apply to IDPA. This is an "IPSC or USPSA" term. IDPA is scored via Vicker's Count (Raw Time + Penalty Seconds for poor hits). IDPA places an importance on fast shooting AND accuracy. If one is going to hose in IDPA, they better get good hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 [Fixiing my math error, thanks Flex] IDPA scoring = a permanently fixed hit factor of 2 in IPSC-speak. Each point down costs you 1/2 seconds. Whether or not they call it "HF" is a whole nother matter, but it does make sense for the crossover IPSC shooters. It also shows the priority for accuracy far overrides the value of fast shooting. I personally like the extra variable hit-factor gives you-- you can make total hoser stages or extreme accuracy stages or whatever you want in between, but it's not the only way to fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Shred, I was going to mention that IDPA has a fixed hit factor as well (just different terms used to describe the same stuff). But, since each point down is worth 0.5 seconds, wouldn't that be a hit factor of 2? (insert scratching head icon here) Any way you cut it...you gotta hit those points in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Don't forget the FTN Penalty. For example, if a target requires 2 hits and it has one in the -3 area and one miss, the shooter will be penalized: 1.5 seconds + 2.5 seconds for the miss + 5 seconds for Failure to Neutralize. An IDPA target has a 5,4,2 scoring zone that one does not see. At least 4 points are required to neutralize the target. 2 hits in the -3 or one hit in either the -0 or -1 will prevent the FTN penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I realize I'm probably speaking a little out of school here, but I'm going to anyway. Mostly, because with the way this thread has gone, I certainly don't feel like I'm the first. Let me say first I seem to agree an with Flex a good bit. I think this thread is turning into an IPSC is great because they reward major, and IDPA is awful because they don't. I also agree that there is no place for IDPA vs. IPSC/USPSA mentality. I shoot both. IDPA happens to be more convienent for me, next month the only game in town I've been able to find is USPSA. So next month, I'll be shooting Production. Once the IDPA clubs start up for the summer, I won't have to drive as far. Everyone is complaining about being "penalized" for shooting a "major" round in IDPA. There are very few competition shooters who don't reload. So load it down. If you are one of the few who buy ammo, you really might want to look at reloading. It is an enjoyable AND financially beneficial hobby if you shoot much. Also 38 supers, .357 mags, 9x19s, 357 sigs, 9x23 Wins, 9x21s can all be loaded to major but they still aren't scored major in USPSA production, Limited or L-10. BECAUSE the RULES mandate either nothing is major, or it must be .40 or above. Similarly the rules in IDPA say there is no major or minor, but a pf floor, gun type, and/or caliber restriction for each class. About, visually scoring targets. The same is true in IDPA as in USPSA, if you want to move up and win; you quickly stop looking at your targets. If you can check your target and make up a -1, in less than the .5 penality, great. I have a hard time beliving you will win the match, but I've been wrong before. I do know the guys who consistently win the matches I've been shooting are confirming the sight picture, not the target. About the stiffer penalities being need in IDPA, I agree. Of course, I got a penalty of 7.5 seconds on 1 target at re-shoot last month. Talk about turning a great time into something mediocre. I do like the USPSA rule of penalizing each hit on a no-shoot. That is something IDPA might want to consider adopting, but if not there is still a penalty. Lastly, this is the largest most active shooting forum I've found. There is a wide geographic and skill level representation here. If people really want something to happen with IDPA rather than just complaining, get permission from Mr. Enos to start an online petition for a rule change. Personally, I think the rules are just fine the way they are. I shoot 9mms, because that was what I had when I started the game and saw no reason to get anything different. If I had to start over, I would have a stable of .40's because I think they shoot a little softer, and for the few times I shoot USPSA. Thank you for your time. Seth Ritzman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Anyone heard any information about the rumored update to the IDPA rulebook?? I've heard talk about it for going on two years now, but haven't seen any hard evidence that a change is in the works.Its pretty easy to keep up with ongoing/proposed rule book changes in IPSC/USPSA. I guess that's another way IDPA is trying to not be like IPSC. One of the principles of IDPA is a stable set of rules. In regards to the recent rule book review, it's purpose was not to create new rules but to clarify existing ones. A lot of work went into the process with input from Area Coordinators and SO's. Once HQ approves, it will be published. rmills, Im late as usual, been trying to make a living, work on my house and keep up with the newest edition to my family SDP "Super Dooper Pooper" Update on the AC/SOI rule book clarification. It was rejected. They started over last I heard. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 I realize I'm probably speaking a little out of school here, but I'm going to anyway. Mostly, because with the way this thread has gone, I certainly don't feel like I'm the first.Thank you for your time. Seth Ritzman HighTechRedneck, That was a FANTASTIC post. I have to add a little to visually scoring while shooting. BS! Cant be done by a mortal. MAYBE some of the greats can but I doubt anyone below GM. Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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