New to open

[67DRESDA]

Just got my new gun a few weeks ago from Brazos Custom.It is a Pro SC 5 inch in 38 supercomp.Man oh man what a

awesome piece of equipment,this gun just runs and runs ,I have about 1500 rounds through the gun without a single

failure of any sort.Without a doubt I am hooked on open.

Bob set me up with a couple of loads to use one with VV n105 and the other with Imr 4756.He recommends WSR

primers which as we all know are hard to come by so I have been using Wolf spp and Federal smpp #200 primers.My

Imr 10 shot average with a MG 124g JHP is 1364.2, S.D. OF 6.4 with a power factor of 169.2.No big difference in

the velocity between the two primers although the Federal's did give another 6 fps at 1370.9 for a power factor

of 170.OK I know that the Federal primers are softer than the Wolf,but on the Wolf primer you can just barely

see a flattening of the primer,different story with the Federal's they are noticeably flatter although after close

inspection with a magnifier I can't see any signs of primer flow.My first question is with the velocity and power

factor being where they are the pressure can't be to high can it? My next question is can I use these Federal primers

with this load without taking a chance on hurting my new toy.Thanks in advance to all for your advice,this forum is

awesome and you guys are the best.Thanks

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Try some CCI primers. They are harder than the Federals. I have been using Winchester Magnum pistol primers as well. Thanks, Eric

[pjb45]

First, you are not going to hurt your gun! Search the internet for high pressure signs on primers. There is a web site that has some great pictures. If you are worried about too much pressure, this will help guide you. It does not sound like you are getting primer flow due to high pressure.

There are a couple of things that mitigate hard primers, a heavier main spring and a long firing pin by Matt McLearn.

I had some Coast Guard .40 surplus ammo, amazingly hard primers. I had multiple miss fires. The McLearn firing pin took care of that problem. You can get them from Matt, Angus or SSI. I have them in three of my guns.

I have use Federal, Magtech, Winchester, CCI, and Wolf primers in my SVs. They all work just fine. I am using Federal Small Pistol Magnum primers right now. No problems, they go boom like they are suppose to go boom. I have chrono'd these puppies, and there is no real difference (on the average) in velocity from other primers- same bullets, powder, brass but different primers all show up at around 169-171 PF.

I have ammo from 5 Nationals and A2 matches. I use this as my control. A couple three rounds of that stuff and then the newly loaded ammo. I use VV 320 powder and I have not notice any real differences in powder lots either.

Hey Eric, Sportsman's Warehouse has Federal primers-they had about 12K a couple of days ago-~$40/1K

[Aircooled6racer]

Paul: I only use Federal primers in my Revolver. They make it go bang everytime I appreciate the heads up. I use the Dawson Hyperdrive extended firing pin in my major 9mm and it helped with the primer flow problem with Winchester small pistol primers Some powders are more prone to induce primer flow and flattening. For me 3N37 flattens primers more than the other powders I use. So far for me the CCI rifle primers are the hardest I've tried which is not alot. Thanks, Eric

[G-ManBart]

If you're not seeing primer flow and you're not seeing any cratering, you shouldn't have any problems. I'm mostly using Fed SPM in Supercomp with 115gr MG JHPs and N105 at right around 1515fps and getting some flattening, but no flow or cratering. Even with Win SR you'll get a tiny smidge of flattening with many loads. I've used quite a few thousand of them so far, in two guns, with zero issues. I do have some Wolf SR that I've started testing with and they seem to give similar velocities with a touch less flattening, but they don't seat as easily.

One thing to consider is that with the Fed SPM being softer, they might get a little bit of flattening when you seat them. Compare some of your loaded rounds with both FSPM and Wolf SPP to see if that's the case. R,

[xsniper]

Bob set me up with a couple of loads to use one with VV n105 and the other with Imr 4756.He recommends WSR

primers which as we all know are hard to come by so I have been using Wolf spp and Federal smpp #200 primers

_____________________________________________________________________

What was Bob's suggested load for your gun with the 4756 ??? Did it include OAL ???

[XRe]

Even with Win SR you'll get a tiny smidge of flattening with many loads.

With those two loads, though, WSRs basically look pristine (based on my experience with them, anyway...). On the other hand, WSPMs look somewhat flattened, and WSPs look pretty flattened out with the N105 load. What using a rifle primer gives you in these cases is some margin for error against shaving the primer if there's a little bit of flow - that prevents junk from accumulating in the FP tunnel and causing an issue w/ the FP jamming up (causing light strikes or failures to fire).

I've used quite a few thousand of them so far, in two guns, with zero issues. I do have some Wolf SR that I've started testing with and they seem to give similar velocities with a touch less flattening, but they don't seat as easily.

Heard the same thing about the seating on those... Haven't tried them, yet, myself...

One thing to consider is that with the Fed SPM being softer, they might get a little bit of flattening when you seat them. Compare some of your loaded rounds with both FSPM and Wolf SPP to see if that's the case. R,

To the OP - post some pics, if you want, and we can help more. But, I suspect if you put a WSR in there, you wouldn't see any flattening at all. Take confidence that both loads you have are very safe, from a pressure standpoint (the N105 load is within VV's book specs for .38 Super! .. and Bob's done some work to verify the same for the 4756 load). I've shot both loads in my own Brazos guns, and they both run great. I've been running WSPMs in my practice ammo - the Federal is going to be even softer, so no surprise it flattens out some. I'm about to test Fed SR primers (more easily found than WSRs for me, at the moment), as well.

[XD Niner]

I have the same gun and use IMR 4756 with an OAL of 1.235 inches with a MG 124 grain JHP or a Zero 125 grain JHP. I normally use Wolf Small Rifle primers but recently experimented with their Small Pistol primers. My conclusion was that either will work just fine with no primer flow or significant flattening.

I now have over 40K rounds through my Brazos Blaster with no primer related damage of any kind.

[G-ManBart]

Even with Win SR you'll get a tiny smidge of flattening with many loads.

With those two loads, though, WSRs basically look pristine (based on my experience with them, anyway...). On the other hand, WSPMs look somewhat flattened, and WSPs look pretty flattened out with the N105 load. What using a rifle primer gives you in these cases is some margin for error against shaving the primer if there's a little bit of flow - that prevents junk from accumulating in the FP tunnel and causing an issue w/ the FP jamming up (causing light strikes or failures to fire).

I've used quite a few thousand of them so far, in two guns, with zero issues. I do have some Wolf SR that I've started testing with and they seem to give similar velocities with a touch less flattening, but they don't seat as easily.

Heard the same thing about the seating on those... Haven't tried them, yet, myself...

One thing to consider is that with the Fed SPM being softer, they might get a little bit of flattening when you seat them. Compare some of your loaded rounds with both FSPM and Wolf SPP to see if that's the case. R,

To the OP - post some pics, if you want, and we can help more. But, I suspect if you put a WSR in there, you wouldn't see any flattening at all. Take confidence that both loads you have are very safe, from a pressure standpoint (the N105 load is within VV's book specs for .38 Super! .. and Bob's done some work to verify the same for the 4756 load). I've shot both loads in my own Brazos guns, and they both run great. I've been running WSPMs in my practice ammo - the Federal is going to be even softer, so no surprise it flattens out some. I'm about to test Fed SR primers (more easily found than WSRs for me, at the moment), as well.

Yeah, I've seen only a smidge of flattening with the N105 load and Win SR...you really have to look to spot it and at a quick glance they look perfect. I think you'll find that Fed SR will have a bit more flattening than the Win SR (I did), but not enough to even remotely worry about. I should mention that my load is normally runs 173-174PF.

In the last year or so I've used Win SR, Fed SR, Fed SPM, Win SP, Fed SP and Wolf SR...all with the same load. I'd rank them from least to most flattening as Win SR, Wolf SR, Fed SR, Fed SPM, Win SP, Fed SP. The Fed SP have a bit too much flattening for me and I wouldn't use them again unless it was an emergency...quite a bit more than Win SP.

It's a tossup to me whether I'd choose Fed SR or Win SR if I could pick any I wanted. The WSR has the edge as far as pressure handling, but the FSR seat better and I can get a couple more uses out of each case with them. Honestly, I've had such good luck with the FSPM that I bought all I could get my hands on and will grab more if/when they're available again. R,

Edited March 31, 2010 by G-ManBart

[COMATZD]

I'm shooting a 9 Major, which can see higher pressures than the 38 due to shorter cases. I worked up to my load using Fed primers because they are soft. Some of them flattened out quite a bit as my loads got up around 175pf, where I stopped. I settled on a nice 170pf load, then switched over to harder primers so I didn't have to worry about any flow issues. I'm currently running Wolf small rifle magnum primers and things are great. I like the CCI variants too, SR and SP. Both are a harder than Feds and probably close to WSr or WSP.

I'd second G-Man's order of hardness while inserting CCI somewhere in the middle; Win SR, Wolf SR, Fed SR, Fed SPM, Win SP, Fed SP

[superdude]

primer flow pictures:

http://www.38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html

about 3/4 down the page.

[XRe]

Those pics aren't even extreme... and they're labeled a bit wrong... On the flat primer one, there's evidence of cratering that's been sheared off...

[GrumpyOne]

Even with Win SR you'll get a tiny smidge of flattening with many loads.

With those two loads, though, WSRs basically look pristine (based on my experience with them, anyway...). On the other hand, WSPMs look somewhat flattened, and WSPs look pretty flattened out with the N105 load. What using a rifle primer gives you in these cases is some margin for error against shaving the primer if there's a little bit of flow - that prevents junk from accumulating in the FP tunnel and causing an issue w/ the FP jamming up (causing light strikes or failures to fire).

I've used quite a few thousand of them so far, in two guns, with zero issues. I do have some Wolf SR that I've started testing with and they seem to give similar velocities with a touch less flattening, but they don't seat as easily.

Heard the same thing about the seating on those... Haven't tried them, yet, myself...

One thing to consider is that with the Fed SPM being softer, they might get a little bit of flattening when you seat them. Compare some of your loaded rounds with both FSPM and Wolf SPP to see if that's the case. R,

To the OP - post some pics, if you want, and we can help more. But, I suspect if you put a WSR in there, you wouldn't see any flattening at all. Take confidence that both loads you have are very safe, from a pressure standpoint (the N105 load is within VV's book specs for .38 Super! .. and Bob's done some work to verify the same for the 4756 load). I've shot both loads in my own Brazos guns, and they both run great. I've been running WSPMs in my practice ammo - the Federal is going to be even softer, so no surprise it flattens out some. I'm about to test Fed SR primers (more easily found than WSRs for me, at the moment), as well.

Yeah, I've seen only a smidge of flattening with the N105 load and Win SR...you really have to look to spot it and at a quick glance they look perfect. I think you'll find that Fed SR will have a bit more flattening than the Win SR (I did), but not enough to even remotely worry about. I should mention that my load is normally runs 173-174PF.

In the last year or so I've used Win SR, Fed SR, Fed SPM, Win SP, Fed SP and Wolf SR...all with the same load. I'd rank them from least to most flattening as Win SR, Wolf SR, Fed SR, Fed SPM, Win SP, Fed SP. The Fed SP have a bit too much flattening for me and I wouldn't use them again unless it was an emergency...quite a bit more than Win SP.

It's a tossup to me whether I'd choose Fed SR or Win SR if I could pick any I wanted. The WSR has the edge as far as pressure handling, but the FSR seat better and I can get a couple more uses out of each case with them. Honestly, I've had such good luck with the FSPM that I bought all I could get my hands on and will grab more if/when they're available again. R,

G-man, have you tested any Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primers? Where do you think they would rank? Somewhere between the FSR and FSPM? Or higher on your scale?

[G-ManBart]

G-man, have you tested any Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primers? Where do you think they would rank? Somewhere between the FSR and FSPM? Or higher on your scale?

Nope, haven't tried any WSPM yet, but I'd buy them in a heartbeat if I saw them at a reasonable price. I'd guess that they're probably pretty close to FSR in handling pressure if they keep to the trend with the other variants. I'd actually really like to add them to the comparison list and see how they do fps wise back to back with some of the others I have. R,

[XRe]

I can compare to FSR soon... If I had a scale from 1 to 10, and WSR are 10, with WSP being 1, WSPM probably fall around 4 or 5, FWIW... They're definitely softer than WSR, and definitely harder than WSP (and way, way, harder than FSP...)

[superdude]

Those pics aren't even extreme... and they're labeled a bit wrong... On the flat primer one, there's evidence of cratering that's been sheared off...

they're labeled correctly. part of their appearance is due to minimal cratering but no shearing, and to lighting conditions. it's true that it's hard to find examples that represent a perfect example of a given category or description. when high pressures start distorting the primer metal, its flow does not always match a simple one-word descripton of the categories we like to put them in. add to that specific dimensions of the firing pin and firing pin hole, and picture-perfect examples are uncommon, especially when viewed at high magnification where features not readily visible to the naked eye suddenly loom large. the examples shown happened to fit the somewhat arbitrary descriptions pretty well, and serve as examples to illustrate the general phenomenon described. some of them are certainly not the most extreme examples i've seen over the years, which include some with completely flat primers, primer metal protruding like a dagger, or primers blown completely from the case. but i still feel that they serve as good examples. and lighting, let me tell you about lighting - a photographer's worst enemy! in my experience it only reveals a photographer's lack of perfection.

[67DRESDA]

Guys,thanks for all of the help,it sure does help shorten the learning curve.

Eric,I will have to try some cci primers,I have a couple of sleeves but

have not had a chance to load any.

Bart,thanks for the tip on checking loaded ammo for a little flattening,

had not thought of that one.The Wolf spp does seat quiet a bit harder

than the Federal,s do but the seating pressure seems to be consistant

with new or once fired brass.

One question,with the primers harder to seat do you think that this

will cause more wear and tear on the primer pocket and lead to

earlier than normal loose primer pockets.

My 4756 loads are 8.4g, MG 124g and Zero 125, all are loaded

to an oal of 1.235 with a .378 to.379 crimp.

XRe,I was very confidant in Bob,s loads,with just a little chronograph

work I knew that they were right on the money,I just was not sure that

I may have been doing something wrong.I have been loading and shooting

production for a couple of years now and don't have a lot of experience

with flat primers and primer flow.

I have seen the pics on 38super.n and am happy to say that none of my

primers look like any of those,the outside diameter of mine still have

some rounding to them .

Thanks Guy,s

[XRe]

Those pics aren't even extreme... and they're labeled a bit wrong... On the flat primer one, there's evidence of cratering that's been sheared off...

they're labeled correctly. part of their appearance is due to minimal cratering but no shearing,

"Flat with Normal Strike" is cratered and sheared. Regardless of lighting, that's pretty obvious. This is a pretty common presentation out of a race gun (though not one I'd settle for in my own loads... some people seem to be happy to ride the line...). There's a raised edge that the shadow along the bottom side of the primer strike makes obvious, and the edge of the FP strike area is wiped smooth by the FP hole in the breechface.

and to lighting conditions. it's true that it's hard to find examples that represent a perfect example of a given category or description. when high pressures start distorting the primer metal, its flow does not always match a simple one-word descripton of the categories we like to put them in.

I agree with you there. It's also tough to classify things because it's hard to say exactly what qualifies as "flat" or whatever - one man's "flat" is another's "normal" in many cases

add to that specific dimensions of the firing pin and firing pin hole, and picture-perfect examples are uncommon, especially when viewed at high magnification where features not readily visible to the naked eye suddenly loom large. the examples shown happened to fit the somewhat arbitrary descriptions pretty well, and serve as examples to illustrate the general phenomenon described.

I just object to that picture being called a "normal" strike. Usually, cratering and (most) shearing can be solved with an appropriate firing pin - especially cratering with a normal pressure load (which can happen...). It's arguable whether it's wise to specifically try to solve it on loads that are otherwise unsafe, as you're just kind of playing "ostrich", at that point...

some of them are certainly not the most extreme examples i've seen over the years, which include some with completely flat primers, primer metal protruding like a dagger, or primers blown completely from the case. but i still feel that they serve as good examples.

I've seen all those, too... The last one is especially scary!

and lighting, let me tell you about lighting - a photographer's worst enemy! in my experience it only reveals a photographer's lack of perfection.

Um, I'm a photographer with a good amount of studio experience. I know a few things about light

[G-ManBart]

One question,with the primers harder to seat do you think that this

will cause more wear and tear on the primer pocket and lead to

earlier than normal loose primer pockets.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about that too much. I guess it's possible that they'd wear the pockets, but normally that happens just from shooting high pressure loads and they loosen up. If anything, they might seal better and that could help them last a little longer, but that's just a guess. R,

[XRe]

I can compare to FSR soon... If I had a scale from 1 to 10, and WSR are 10, with WSP being 1, WSPM probably fall around 4 or 5, FWIW... They're definitely softer than WSR, and definitely harder than WSP (and way, way, harder than FSP...)

So, FSRs seem to be relatively hard on my sale above, as well. 9 or 10. With my 121gr N105 load (which is 172 PF, I think...), the primers have very nice round shoulders, just like WSRs. The only difference is that the FP strike seems a tad deeper on the FSR, which leads me to believe the cup is just a hair softer than WSR (which sounds about like what others have found). I'd call them good to go in my loads for all conditions (unlike WSPM, which I use only for practice and local matches)...

[G-ManBart]

I can compare to FSR soon... If I had a scale from 1 to 10, and WSR are 10, with WSP being 1, WSPM probably fall around 4 or 5, FWIW... They're definitely softer than WSR, and definitely harder than WSP (and way, way, harder than FSP...)

So, FSRs seem to be relatively hard on my sale above, as well. 9 or 10. With my 121gr N105 load (which is 172 PF, I think...), the primers have very nice round shoulders, just like WSRs. The only difference is that the FP strike seems a tad deeper on the FSR, which leads me to believe the cup is just a hair softer than WSR (which sounds about like what others have found). I'd call them good to go in my loads for all conditions (unlike WSPM, which I use only for practice and local matches)...

That's interesting. I noted the deeper FP strike as well. I've definitely had excellent luck with FSR and wish I had more left. The FSPM sounds like it might actually be thicker/harder than the WSPM because they aren't quite as good as FSR (at least what I've seen), but they weren't drastically different. I would have expected WSPM to show less flattening than FSPM, but it sounds like maybe not....it's weird, but stranger things have happened. I need to take a couple of pics of FSPM/N105 loads and upload them for comparison's sake. R,

[GrumpyOne]

I think I'm going to try and build some sort of drop weight test for testing primers. Load one up in a 38SPL brass (I have tons of 38SPL laying around), drill a hole in a piece of wood, make a PVC tube with a slot cut down the side, a small nail rounded over in one end in a wooden dowel that fits in the PVC, slide into the PVC with the slot cut out of it, put a scale on the side of the PVC with the slot cut out of it (so you will know how high you drop the dowel with the nail), put it over the primer, and drop. I figure around 4 foot of pipe, if a WSP doesn't fire at 4 foot, I'll start adding weights to the dowel until I can get it to fire at around 18". I'll use this as my baseline. What do you guys think?

[jkatz44]

How does Winchester Small Rifle Primers work in 9 major?

[G-ManBart]

How does Winchester Small Rifle Primers work in 9 major?

They're probably the preferred primer for most 9 Major users....just been hard to find the last year or so. R,

[mra8541]

Just got my new gun a few weeks ago from Brazos Custom.It is a Pro SC 5 inch in 38 supercomp.Man oh man what a

awesome piece of equipment,this gun just runs and runs ,I have about 1500 rounds through the gun without a single

failure of any sort.Without a doubt I am hooked on open.

Bob set me up with a couple of loads to use one with VV n105 and the other with Imr 4756.He recommends WSR

primers which as we all know are hard to come by so I have been using Wolf spp and Federal smpp #200 primers.My

Imr 10 shot average with a MG 124g JHP is 1364.2, S.D. OF 6.4 with a power factor of 169.2.No big difference in

the velocity between the two primers although the Federal's did give another 6 fps at 1370.9 for a power factor

of 170.OK I know that the Federal primers are softer than the Wolf,but on the Wolf primer you can just barely

see a flattening of the primer,different story with the Federal's they are noticeably flatter although after close

inspection with a magnifier I can't see any signs of primer flow.My first question is with the velocity and power

factor being where they are the pressure can't be to high can it? My next question is can I use these Federal primers

with this load without taking a chance on hurting my new toy.Thanks in advance to all for your advice,this forum is

awesome and you guys are the best.Thanks

I've shot Wolf smpp in my open STI for over a year and never had an issue. I used CCI before that but they became hard to find... It doesn't sound like you are going to hurt your new toy... I know people with ports and comps that have to use 9.0g of HS6 to make major...