Discovered Setback!

[Sarge]

I have always checked for setback and up until tonight have never had a single problem. But I was killing some time after loading and tried something new. I really, really pushed hard (leaned in to it)and could create setback. I am loading 9 minor to about 130 pf with solo1000 and MG 124's. I could only get movement with Blazer brass. Everything mic'ed out right, i.e bullets, case wall, etc. The only difference is the blazer are so shiny inside compared to other brass in the bin. I am thinking maybe they are just too slick, i.e smooth and clean. There is no lube getting inside the cases.

I know setback is a no-no, but just how hard should I push to test it? Seems to me that under the right conditions you could push hard enough to cause any round to setback.

I have loaded hundreds and hundreds of Blazer brass and never noticed any pressure issues or sharper recoil or unusual chrono readings.

I plan to take these to the range and see how they react. If I don't get any movement under simulated match conditions I plan to use what I have loaded until I come up with a different solution.

Thoughts? Recommendations on a solution?

[8ring]

When assembling 9mm ammo, I lean on a sample of the loaded rounds pretty hard by pushing with my arms while leaning my weight into the edge of the reloading bench. If it moves more than .002", I stop and see what's wrong. If it happens with several different pieces of the same brass, I will consider discarding that batch of brass.

I also test dummy rounds as follows. Stick an empty magazine in your weapon and lock the slide back. Put a dummy round with your favorite bullet and brass in a mag, put the mag in the weapon and hit the slide release so the slide comes forward fast. Then eject it and check the OAL. If you can do this three or four times with no change in OAL, you are probably OK.

Good luck and be careful.

Chris

[dillon]

When I'm lazy I press the nose of the bullet against the edge of the bench and lean into it. If It moves I use the bathroom scale, and apply about 30 lbs of pressure. It shouldn't move more than a few thousanths. * ring is correct on both counts,as you can make a dummy and see if it collapses much after feeding into the chamber a few times.

[Sarge]

I'll run these tests. As hard as I pushed I'm thinking the ammo will pass.

Thank you both!

[earlbob]

I wonder how hard you can push a factory round before it moves? It seems like you guys are pressing them pretty hard. I like the scale idea, something quantitative helps sooth my soul in these types of quandaries!

earl

[G-ManBart]

Also, measure the thickness of the brass and compare it to rounds you can't get setback with....these just might be a touch thinner. R,

[Sarge]

Yeah, thats the case. There is less noticable expansion of the case neck. Also, CCI and Speer brass(all in the family)do it as well, just to a lesser degree. Win and RP are tight!

I just tested them as recommended by cycling them through the gun 3 times. They dropped about 3-5 thousandths. 1.138 or 9 to 1.134 or 5. I plan to fix this in the future but I think I can use this batch up.

Is this something a U die would cure? Or maybe just a standard lee?

[G-ManBart]

Yeah, thats the case. There is less noticable expansion of the case neck. Also, CCI and Speer brass(all in the family)do it as well, just to a lesser degree. Win and RP are tight!

I just tested them as recommended by cycling them through the gun 3 times. They dropped about 3-5 thousandths. 1.138 or 9 to 1.134 or 5. I plan to fix this in the future but I think I can use this batch up.

Is this something a U die would cure? Or maybe just a standard lee?

That's not too bad, but I prefer zero setback even cycling them a couple of times, just to be on the safe side. Some of it is likely that the MG bullets tend to run a tad small. Combine thinner brass with smaller bullets...bingo, setback.

The standard Lee die may not since it's probably not any tighter in the upper third/half than any of the other normal dies out there, but it's possible...sorta depends on seating depth. The U-die likely would probably totally fix the issue because it's .001 smaller. At $22 or something like that, it's worth trying. Depending what press you're running a standard resizing die in station 1 with a U-die (no decapping pin) in station 2 makes for a nice setup...a bit lower effort and smoother starting the first case compared with putting the U-die in station 1. R,

[Sarge]

I fixed the problem. For all you new reloaders out there(i.e. me!)listen up. I went through the press and tweaked the dies.

I screwed the sizer down just a little bit. Just enough to feel a little more resistance than before.

I took some bell out. It was not excessive but it was probably a tad more than needed.

Finally I actually eased up on the crimp die a little. Even though I was getting a good reading @.376 I was getting some resistance in that station. After backing out a little I still get .376 but with minimal resistance now.

I was almost ready to order a U die but was not confident it would solve the problem.

Routine adjustments was all it took.

550b by the way.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Sarge

[Bass Ackwardz]

Good to hear Sarge...

Bass

[Sarge]

UGHH!! Not totally gone afterall. Not as bad as it was but I still get the odd one that will move if I push it hard. Not only the speer family but FC will do it as well. Damn! I really don't want to go to a u die but I guess I'll have to give it a shot. On a 550 I don't have the option of running through a standard sizer first. I just have this feeling I'll be fighting the press too much.

Bart was right about MG being small my 124 FMJ's are only 354-354.5

[earlbob]

I actually had some problems like this a couple of days ago. With 45 ACP. Never had the problem before. I thought about it some, tried a couple of different things and then realized that the only thing I had altered was I started using Hornady One Shot. I am inclined to believe that it had something to do with it. Also I was looking at some factory ammo, don't recall off hand which brand but I'll see if I can find it, and noticed that they put a lot more crimp on their rounds then most people recommend.

I have not had much luck in consistent measuring of the taper crimp with dial calipers on my loads so have been using this technique. I load one and seat the bullet then pull it out of station 3 and load another one all the way through the 550. I then look at both rounds head on (gotta take my glasses off now days to see it well, the bifocals are a bit strong for close in work) and try to get a crimp that eliminates about one half of the thickness of the brass. Be interested if anyone has a good technique on the calipers to see what this measures out as when they do it....

earl

Edited April 3, 2010 by earlbob

[SA Friday]

Some don't like the U die. I do, and use it on all of my 9mm, 40 cal , and 45 acp. It will solve your problem.

Based on the numbers, I suspect you are probably just fine though. If you have to push hard enough to leave red marks on your thumb and it's uncomfortable to get the bullet to move, it's in there pretty tight.

[TerryO]

I also use the U die on everything, 9, 40 ,45 and 38SC. Just makes life easier. By the way if you use a little teflon powder as a lube on your brass you won't even notice that you're using a U die.

[DWFAN]

I had the same problems, but the MG measured pretty good for me, .355 maybe .3545. Sizing die was all the way down.. Tried less crimp, more crimp, no crimp, FCD, no FCD, more bell, less bell, no bell.. everything except calling Hornady about the dies, I didnt have time to wait on that. Could still push the bullet in with FC, PMC, Blazer brass. Bought a U-die.. and havent had one problem yet.

[Sarge]

Yeah, I've got one on the way.

[Sarge]

Ran a hundred through the U die tonight. BINGO, we have a winner.

I noticed a few things right off the bat though. One good and one not so good.

Good- Was making a small crease near the bottom of the brass on some cases. I just backed the die out a little and it went away. It still fits in the case gauge better than my normal brass ran through my standard die.

Bad- Can't crank them out as fast because the die is not really flaired much if any. Kept catching the case mouth when I tried to run wide open. I might tighten up the paper clip and see if it helps any.

Overall I am pleasantly surprised with the die's performance. If you use lube it is not nearly as hard to run the press as I thought it would be after reading some posts about it. I would say there is maybe 10-15% more resistance.

Thanks all for the recommendations.

[blkbrd]

U die is the trick for consistency with mixed brass.

Also polish your powder/bell die down so it doesn't re-expand the brass so much, and bell just enough so you don't shave bullets.

[markm87]

FC will do it as well.

That was my first thought. I had this problem with FC brass years back. I can't remember if I tried tweaking the dies or not. But I ended up buying a different resizing die and the problem was solved. I could literally push bullets back with my fingers when FC brass was used.

[KentG]

Hmm,, Im doing research in preperation to start reloading 9 for my on order XD 5.25. I really dont want to use lube if I dont have to but Id like to just go ahead and get U Die. I have 5K of used mixed range brass already. Anyone use the U die without lube without issues?

[DWFAN]

I have, but it is much smoother with some lube. I'm also two step sizing to smooth out the process.

Regular size - deprime

U-Size

Expand

Powder drop

Seat/crimp

Some people dont like to seat/crimp in one stage, I have no issues with it.

[lugnut]

I had some problems similar to this quite a while ago in 45 ACP. It was certain brass that seemed to be a tad thinner than others- I think it was actually R&P. I didn't want to use the U die for 45. I switched my Hornady sizing die to RCBS and all was good. .001" in variation in a die/case can make a huge difference with throat tension. I attributed this to a slightly oversized die and cheap used brass. I still use R&P brass with the RCBS dies fwiw.

EDIT: I don't think you need to put all your weight on the bullet to check for set back- that's overkill IMO. A good firm press though with your thumb pushing down should tell you what you need to know.

Edited September 6, 2011 by lugnut

[Flexmoney]

Hmm,, Im doing research in preperation to start reloading 9 for my on order XD 5.25. I really dont want to use lube if I dont have to but Id like to just go ahead and get U Die. I have 5K of used mixed range brass already. Anyone use the U die without lube without issues?

Why not use the lube??

You have two metals coming into contact. Lube is perfect for that.

[KentG]

Hmm,, Im doing research in preperation to start reloading 9 for my on order XD 5.25. I really dont want to use lube if I dont have to but Id like to just go ahead and get U Die. I have 5K of used mixed range brass already. Anyone use the U die without lube without issues?

Why not use the lube??

You have two metals coming into contact. Lube is perfect for that.

To be honest all I have never had to use lube since I only load pistol and use Scharch brass for rifle. I don't know how messy it is and don't want to add cleaning the loaded ammo to the process if I can get away with it. I think the 5.25 will have a tight chamber so I suppose I will have to take the lube plunge at some point.

Good thread for info!

Edited September 6, 2011 by tnek

[DWFAN]

If you use small doses of Hornady one shot, its not messy at all, and doesnt really need cleaned off finished ammo.