10 rounds world wide

[spook]

Wouldn't that be a good idea? 10 (or some other fixed number of rnds.) you can load in production guns. If IPSC would adopt the USPSA rule, you would probably take a big chunk out of the "equipment race" that has started in IPSC prod.class. (see world shoot 13).

Whaddayathink?

[ErikW]

Yup, and for Standard/Limited.

Imagine people actually having to practice reloads to do well at matches.

[Patrick Sweeney]

No, no, and once agian, no.  As one rep from a country I do not want to name said to me at the General Assembly "If my Minister of Sport thought for a moment we could shoot the sport with lower-capacity magazines, he'd call in all the hi-caps and tell us to practice more."

It's bad law here, we shouldn't be forcing it on other countries, too.

[ErikW]

If I were Czar of the World and all the people responsible for less-capacity magazine laws were hanging from lamposts, I would still like to see round-limiting rules for certain divisions.

I'm saying it is a better game with the reloads.

[Duane Thomas]

When **I** become God-Emperor, the mag capacity limit will be swept away country-wide and there will be no restriction aside from overall mag length, and the fact it's a factory mag, in Production. I mean, really, assuming you can buy 17-round Glock 17 mags for a reasonable price, and get them for free (so to speak) with every new G17, it's just silly to force people to use 10-rounders.

Second G-E edict:  Limited-10 becomes Limited-Singlestack.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 2:50 pm on Nov. 5, 2002)

[spook]

I'm not saying that there should be laws in other countries like the one in the US, where you can only buy ten-rounders.

I'm saying: Wouldn't it be cool if the number of rounds you can LOAD, would be fixed in prod.Class? (ala revo class) . This way, everyone can compete with what they have already. This was the original concept of pro.class, but the concept turned out to be an illusion. If you want to be competitive in pro.class, you HAVE to buy a gun with at least 16 round capacity. And that rules out a lot of guns on te approved list.

So, high cap mag LAWS begone. Production class max round RULE welcome? That's my question.

Patrick, this would only apply to production class.

Duane, I agree, but there's no lim-10 in IPSC. And to be honest, I would really like it if there was someting like it.

Erik, yeah, my point exactly.

[Jake Di Vita]

"If you want to be competitive in pro.class, you HAVE to buy a gun with at least 16 round capacity."

Why is that?

[omnia1911]

---

Quote: from TheItlianStalion on 11:55 am on Nov. 6, 2002

"If you want to be competitive in pro.class, you HAVE to buy a gun with at least 16 round capacity."

Why is that?

---

I believe Spook is referring to IPSC Production Division. It doesn't have a 10 round capacity rule like USPSA Production Division.

Those who have 16 round mags for their production guns have a definite advantage over those who only have 10 round mags.

[Jake Di Vita]

I see, perhaps I should verse myself a bit more in IPSC rules.

[Jerome Poiret]

Advice mode on:

Never tell a government that you can shoot this game with 10 rounders ! That'd give them a free stick to beat you up (ie: ban the hi-cap mags).

[Julien Boit]

Jerome is right, be careful .

10 rounds in Production ? No thank you not for me.

Why Did mister Glock made 17 rounders for the G17 if you just are allowed to load 10 ?

Each one has to compete with the gun HE likes, whatever the capacity is.

Plus the (almost) inexpensive price for a Production class pistol allow you to switch to another model more easily than Standard/Limited pistols.

If I had to compete in Production division, I would take my G17 with 17 rounds mags, and if nobody look at me while shooting, I might take my 33 rds too

DVC

Julien

[Detlef]

plus where I come from Glock 17 not-reduced-capacity mags (the regular ones) are indeed only $ 7 a piece, so why worry....

--Detlef

[Patrick Sweeney]

$7 each?  Are you trying to make our heads explode from jealousy?

[MBneACP]

In the wake of Tuesday's elections, I think there's a better than even chance that the 1994 Ban will *not* be renewed (Dave Kopel, writing in the National Review Online, agrees).

As I mentioned before, both Dave Thomas and I have spoken with NSSF (and the NSSF Washington guys) about USPSA's position that the Ban has harmed us directly, and in the absence of any proof whatsoever that the ban has had an effect on crime, magazine capacity should be a dead issue.

I haven't yet talked to the Powers That Be at the gun companies, who have spent a fortune complying with the Ban. I am, however, meeting with the USPSA BofD in Dallas in a couple of weeks, and one of the issues I want to bring up is the creation of a rational strategy to push for letting the Ban sunset.

I haven't given this enough thought yet, and I don't really have a suggestion for a strategy that might work. I do know that USPSA has to have a closer relationship with our various Washington lobbies.

MB

[EricW]

My 2 pesos is that adopting a 10 rd rule is basically admitting defeat.  Plus, we delegitimize guns with higher capacities.  I don't see how to do it without "incriminating" ourselves.  (for lack of a better term)

I'm with Michael on the probability of the law "sunsetting".  What I don't know is whether it woud be better to lobby for it explicitly...or just lay low.

Detlef,

The check is on its way.  Please ship a box of standard capacity "magazines" book rate to....  

E

[spook]

OK, so how about 13, 14 or 15 rounds?

The reason I'm asking this is because a couple of guys showed up at the WSXIII with Para LDA's using 21 round mags. The winner shot a 17+1 round setup.

Now tell me how is average Joe using his 15 shot beretta going to compete with that on those 16 round stages that include steel?

I'm not saying that this game can be played with 10-rounders only. All I'm saying is that it would be cool to have ONE autoloader class in IPSC (not USPSA) that has a rule that says you can only load an x number of rounds.

Right now, when I look at the approved list, I see that most models have round capacity as their major disadvantage. Which is a shame, I think.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

Para LDAs with 21 round magazines at WSXIII???

Are you suggesting there were competitors at WSXIII who had illegal magazines or do you mean that some competitors somehow managed to find after-market 21 round magazines which had the same overall length as standard factory mags, so they therefore complied with IPSC rules?

I served on all arbitrations, but none of them was in respect of illegal magazines, so I guess none of the other competitors had any objections.

Please clarify.

BTW, the winner of Production Division, David Sevigny, shot a bog-standard Glock 17 not a Para LDA.

(Edited by Vince Pinto at 5:11 am on Nov. 8, 2002)

[Duane Thomas]

"I'm with Michael on the probability of the law "sunsetting".  What I don't know is whether it woud be better to lobby for it explicitly...or just lay low."

Lay low. Definitely.

[Duane Thomas]

"The winner shot a 17+1 round setup. Now tell me how is average Joe using his 15 shot beretta going to compete with that on those 16 round stages that include steel?"

The average Joe isn't going to be able to compete with a World Champion irrespective of mag capacity. If David has a 15-shot mag and Joe has 17-shotters, Joe is still going to get his ass kicked, every time.

[spook]

Vince, from what I heard, there were two guys that used Para's and converted "factory" .40 mags, that held 20 or 21 rounds.

I know that David shot a box-glock.

What I'm trying to say is that production is not really beginner-friendly, in that perspective. (You cannot "shoot what you have already" and be competitive if you have a low cap gun).

There are just so many rules I don't get (or that don't make sense) in IPSC, (like the .40 for major rule) and so few rules that (I think) would make this game so much more diverse.

I wish there would be just one class that had no equipment race going on. 'Cause what'll happen if gun company X will produce a "production gun" that holds 28 rounds? People will buy that gun, because it will give you an advantage. And all this time I thought that in production class it wasn't about equipment giving you an advantage.  The only advantage you get from shooting your production gun in production class is that everyone gets a minor score. And believe me, in 5 years it will be a 2nd Standard class, where people shoot minor.

[JFD]

If you want to spend a fortune and have few restrictions, then shoot Limited or Open.  Leave Production and L-10 alone.  These 2 divisions are the only hope for USPSA's  future existence considering the current strength of IDPA and the "shoot on the cheap" way of thinking of a lot of new shooters who start with IDPA and still tend to think of USPSA as too expensive.

All of our Production shooters are crossovers from IDPA or Open/Limited shooters with their blasters in the shop.  None of whom have ever bitched or whined about the 10 round limit.  Want to use your 17 round mag?  Fine, shoot minor Limited.

Continuing to ignore the new guys is a good way to insure USPSA will be dead for the next generation of shooters.  At least in my area we need Production kept as it is in order to attract the IDPAers.

Call me selfish, but USPSA would have died at our local club after this year if I hadn't stepped up as MD for 2003.  Our IDPA folks have 5 times the number of shooters and plenty of volunteers.  All I'll have is myself and 2 burn-outs who really need some rest unless I can promote Production and L-10 and attract those IDPA shooters who have strong ideas about what is "fair"(Production anyway, right or wrong).

[JasonK]

Hi guys, I've been following this forum for a while but I don't post.  None of you know me and there isn't any reason why you should care what I think.

With that out of the way, I hate to see this recent trend toward making everything "fair".  Life is not fair, competition is not fair.  One person won and everyone else lost.  What is fair about that?

If one is not competing at the level one wishes, they should find what is wrong and fix it.  If it is something about their equipment it should be changed or replaced.  If it is something with their shooting ability then practice.  If it relates to physical fitness then exercise.  Keep in mind that everyone has a limit.  Some of our limits equate to TGO.  Most won't.  Fair?

---

"I wish there would be just one class that had no equipment race going on. 'Cause what'll happen if gun company X will produce a "production gun" that holds 28 rounds? People will buy that gun, because it will give you an advantage. And all this time I thought that in production class it wasn't about equipment giving you an advantage."

---

Production should be about shooting a production gun with nothing "fancy" done to it.  If some production guns can accomodate 18+ rounds of 9mm/38super and others can only hold 8rnds of 45ACP that is the way it is.  It isn't equal and shouldn't be.

A fair division without an equipment race would mandate a specific make, model, and options of pistol.  There would be no changes allowed.  All guns would be measured and weighed before and during matches.  All guns would use the same caliber and all ammunition would be supplied from the same source.  To further ensure that the playing field was fair any competitor would be able to swap pistols with anyother competitor.  There should be a fee associated with this to keep arbitrary swapping down, say 1/10 the price of the gun.  Or one would have to supply a box new pistol to swap someone else.  That would totally keep the sneaky modifications down.  Would you risk spending the time or money to have a stealthy advantage if you knew it could be lost at any time?

Then you would have as fair a division as possible where only the shooters ability has any effect on the outcome of a match.

I don't think that will ever happen nor should it.  I'm only trying to illustrate the not everything is fair and I don't think it should be.

If one chooses a particular piece of equipment, one has chosen it's faults as well as it's advantages.  Choose wisely.

[Vince Pinto]

Spook,

I think you are placing way too much emphasis on guns, when the real difference between the match winner and 100th place is skill and practice.

And with all due respect, comments which start "I heard" drive me nuts. I was there at WSXIII and nobody said a damn thing about converted mags or anything similar. If a competitor has a legitimate complaint, there is a procedure in our rules for them to air their grievances at the match, not two months later.

In any case, I don't think IPSC Production Division could be any simpler. We list the approved makes and models and we state which (very limited) options are approved. Moreover, there is no single make, model or configuration which dominates the division, and Production is not reliant on having deep pockets.

A bog standard Glock 17 was used by David Sevigny but I'm willing to bet my left cojone that he would have still won the division had he used a CZ, a Beretta or any other gun on the approved list.

And you wish there was just one division ????? If we did, then deep pockets would make all the difference!

[spook]

Vince, with "one division" I meant one division next to open, standard and modified.

Don't get me wrong, I believe you over the guy I "heard it from" (and I know that's not a valid argument at all ), but that doesn't change the way I feel about production class. The rules state double action guns. Then how come I can compete with my very single action P7, that has a trigger that breaks at 3.5 pounds?

Of course, David would have scored very good with any type of gun, but that's not the point. He might have scored even better if everyone had "similar" gear.

What I think is disturbing in production class, is that most people can look at the list and think: "hey, I could do BETTER if I had that gun (not: I could be world champion if I had that gun)".

And of course skill and practice are the most important thing in IPSC, but I think that in production class, equipment should NOT be an issue AT ALL. And when I look at the rules and the list, I think capacity is the biggest factor in picking a gun from the list. That's why I thought a rule like in USPSA would be a nice idea. And David will still be winning, and people who can't shoot will still suck with that rule. The only difference will be that more "credit" (read: less whining) goes to the shooter.

Jason, I think you are right. If IPSC would ever have a class like that, it would be very, very specific in the rules department.

JFD, amen

[Chuck D]

Sunset,Repeal.....dead issue if you REALLY research the subject. The mag cap ban COULD be repealed or allowed to sunset BUT that would cause no changes in several key states. Do you think for one moment that the state houses in California,New York,Mass,and N.J. will see that the ban has been lifted and will change state laws accordingly? I hope the ban does go away but lets leave L10 and Production division alone for those of us who still reside "behind enemy lines". Sooner or later we as an organization but stop the "I have mine,screw those who don't have theirs" attitude.