olp73 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) I reacently got a custom AR15 built. For some reason I wanted a rifle with a working forward assist. I guess the Idea was to make a multi-gun rifle that still had some tacticoolness. Now I understand that there are certain drawbacks to this choice because a forward assist demands a steel bolt carrier, which makes the whole operating system (carrier, buffer and so on) heavier........Which generates more perceived recoil. The question is; how big is the difference? How is your setup and why? And if I wish to lighten the operating system keeping the forward assist, which choices are there? Facts: The rifle has a 17" Lothar Wather barrel and a lp JP adjustable gas block. Rifle length gas system. Buffer unknown. Edited March 17, 2010 by olp73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 The first time I had ever shot an AR15 it had a low mass JP bolt carrier, adjustable gas block, and a low mass buffer. This was after using an M16A2 in the National Guard for 9 years. I was amazed at how much better the AR15 felt! I would have never bought an AR based on my experience with my M16. After shooting the high end low mass competition setup I was sold and ordered a JP CTR-02 that month. Get yourself the low mass bolt carrier and a low mass buffer or lighten your current buffer and your set. I would also recommend an upgraded trigger if you don't already have one. The JP is all I have ever shot and I don't see any reason to change. I own 3 lowers that all have JP triggers now. Good luck in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 JP no longer makes their aluminum ultra low mass carrier. Only their SS low mass version but it is void of the teeth for ther forward assist pawl to engage. The option and the one I prefer is the Young lightened National Match carrier. It is hard chromed steel and has the teeth needed for the FA to be functional. As for my system....thats all i run. a standard rifle buffer and a Tubbs flat wire spring. I have an adjustable gas block but it remains in the open position. The Young lightened NM carrier and an SJC Titan comp on the end of a 17" Noveske barrel with rifle length gas system are the heart of my rifle. I prefer reliability over the ultra light high performance operating system. My rifle shoots flatter than any JP rifle I have ever shot. Thats not meant to be a knock on JP because he makes fine rifles that shoot great....I basically just much prefer mine over his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) As to the forward assist, if you want the tacticool look, leave it there for all to see. Who cares if it works. Its usefullness is close to zero in my opinion. We learned to push it in basic training when I was in the Army as part of the M16's manual of arms. I don't know if its still taught that way. Last time i pushed on it was at my first rifle match about 9yrs ago. I loaded and made ready and pushed on the forward assist out of habbit. The RO says "is there something wrong with your rifle?" I said "No" and he said dont waist the time with that move then, and I have not scince. For many thousands of rounds it has never been needed. My system consists of a JP ss light bolt carrier, a 4oz homemade buffer, adjustable PRI gas block, Surefire muzzle break, and rifle length gas 18" bbl of my own design. Unlike Todd I do have my gas turned down a bit, but not at the ragged edge of reliability. My Rifle shoots flatter than Todd's Edited March 17, 2010 by mpeltier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Agree with mpeltier, forget the FA, the low mass system is much more of an advantage. I freaked when I got my first low mass system that I could not use the FA on, but now I am over it... If you get a round that won't chamber, rack it out. if that one (and successive ones) won't chamber, you either have a ammo problem, or your chamber is blocked. My JPs shoot flatter than all yalls!!! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 My JPs shoot flatter than all yalls!!! jj No my JP shoots flatter! I actually had to turn the gas up a little as I found myself falling asleep everytime I went prone for more than 4 shots. The gun was so flat and recoil was so nonexistent it lulled me to sleep. Kind of like riding in a car for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) With respect to forward assists I never understood why someone would want to jam an unwilling round into a chamber without the immediacy of life and death circumstances. Even then you could still be creating a huge problem for yourself. For those who insist on a press check then I can see a small utility to ensuring the bolt is fully closed. However, on a recreational or match rifle you really shouldn't need to use the FA at all so I wouldn't worry about the carrier not having the FA engagement notches. The recoil impulse reduction when running a full lightened operating system (gas block, buffer, carrier & comp) is noticeable and however it is much like compensators, in that the results tend to be a pretty broad continuum with quite a bit of influence from each individual user's perspective. Edited March 17, 2010 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aessu Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Yeah. Less weight on moving parts and adjustable gas system = less recoil. Just by taking the weights out of the buffer you get 100g or 3.5oz less mass in the moving parts. Cost - zero. And I've put on a post that shows how to make a adjustable gas system out of a normal FSB with just angle grinder and drill press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Go check out the bolt carrier from Young Manufacturing. They have a lightweight National Match carrier with the forward assist groves. You get the best of both worlds, and I guarantee you will be impressed with their quality. I'm running one on my "home made" gun.- Firebird lower with a Vltor MUR upper, JP supermatch barrel, Pri carbon fiber handguard.... The carrier is super slick, and one nice unit. Another quality company flying a little below the three gunners radar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Anyone know how much one of the Youngs weighs? 'National Match “Light” Bolt Carrier/Chrome w/Key' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Anyone know how much one of the Youngs weighs? 'National Match “Light” Bolt Carrier/Chrome w/Key' I have one in my new 20", so if you bring a scale to Richmond on Saturday, I'll let you weigh it 8.1 ounces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 8.1 ounces My Jp carrier is lighter than your YM carrier 6.0 ounces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 8.1 ounces My Jp carrier is lighter than your YM carrier 6.0 ounces and my Aluminum JP carriers are lighter than your JP carriers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) OK then if i get a 7 oz aluminum carrier and a 7 oz stainless steel carrier, which one is lighter? Edited March 17, 2010 by jtischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 OK then if i get an aluminum catrier and a SS carrier and they both weigh 7 oz, which one is lighter? Drop them on your right foot and see which one hurts more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 OK then if i get an aluminum catrier and a SS carrier and they both weigh 7 oz, which one is lighter? Your wallet would be lightened considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Uh, slight topic drift: If anyone here actually wants some aluminum JP carriers, PM me. Thank you, we now return you to your regularly scheduled program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil G Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I reacently got a custom AR15 built. For some reason I wanted a rifle with a working forward assist. I guess the Idea was to make a multi-gun rifle that still had some “tacticoolness”. Now I understand that there are certain drawbacks to this choice because a forward assist demands a steel bolt carrier, which makes the whole operating system (carrier, buffer and so on) heavier........Which generates more perceived recoil. The question is; how big is the difference? How is your setup and why? And if I wish to lighten the operating system keeping the forward assist, which choices are there? Facts: The rifle has a 17" Lothar Wather barrel and a lp JP adjustable gas block. Rifle length gas system. Buffer unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil G Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I reacently got a custom AR15 built. For some reason I wanted a rifle with a working forward assist. I guess the Idea was to make a multi-gun rifle that still had some “tacticoolness”. Now I understand that there are certain drawbacks to this choice because a forward assist demands a steel bolt carrier, which makes the whole operating system (carrier, buffer and so on) heavier........Which generates more perceived recoil. The question is; how big is the difference? How is your setup and why? And if I wish to lighten the operating system keeping the forward assist, which choices are there? Facts: The rifle has a 17" Lothar Wather barrel and a lp JP adjustable gas block. Rifle length gas system. Buffer unknown. I sent my Rock River bolt carrier to Benny Hill and he "lightened" it to an overall weight of 7.75 oz. The forward assist feature is still intact and works perfectly. He also took one weight out of my buffer to balance the system. I run a standard gas system and a JP Cooley muzzle brake. This system is very flat shooting. Phil G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp73 Posted March 18, 2010 Author Share Posted March 18, 2010 Go check out the bolt carrier from Young Manufacturing. They have a lightweight National Match carrier with the forward assist groves. You get the best of both worlds, and I guarantee you will be impressed with their quality. I'm running one on my "home made" gun.- Firebird lower with a Vltor MUR upper, JP supermatch barrel, Pri carbon fiber handguard.... The carrier is super slick, and one nice unit. Another quality company flying a little below the three gunners radar. Young Manufacturing light carrier sounds like a great idea, might be exactly what I looking for. When you upgrade the operating system is there some kind of rule regarding what goes together with what. Example: can I use a standard weight carrier together with a light weight buffer?....and what about springs? lighter springs goes together with lighter moving parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I recomend a standard or flat coil like Todd runs. I would not recomend a reduced power spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I just want to clarify my position on the use of a forward assist. I absolutely do not believe in nor promote its use under any conditions. If the round won't go in the chamber it needs to come out.....not jammed deeper in. I just wanted to answer the question of the OP about building the closest thing to a Tacticool competition rifle. As for weights of springs and buffers. Typically when you run a lighter carrier,you can run a lighter spring and buffer. Its personal preference and it does change the reciprocating weight substantially. By decreasing that weight.....feeding reliability can become an issue. I want to keep my rifle as reliable as possible. The Young lightened NM carrier is 2 ounces heavier than the JP lightened stainless at about 9 ounces. A stock semi auto carrier is about 11 ounces. Young does not lighten their carrier as much as JP. But young may have a new ultra light carrier out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua79109 Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I can see that the forward assist is not popular here. Personally I would not own an AR without a forward assist. It has nothing to do with shoving a round into the chamber that does not fit (for me). In my opinion the forward assist is used for a couple of different reasons. The reason I most use the FA is to ensure the proper position of the bolt - after a lot of movement with the firearm or when there is a need to chamber a round quietly. I have also seen the FA be useful in extreme cold. The finger on the bolt method is ok as well, but it is not as quick/easy when wearing gloves or in bad weather conditions such as rain, snow, cold, etc... The FA also helps ensure proper bolt position in the dark. The FA is also very useful when using the AR for hunting and there is a need to quietly chamber a round. I can understand that the overall topic here is for a gun match and there would not be a reason to have to be quiet or not use light to verify. I just like my carbines to cover multiple uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 (edited) The discussion in this thread about the FA is not really about its popularity. The OP asked if there was options to keeping the FA but still getting the benefits of a lightened bolt. It was suggested that there are parts that still allow a reduction in overall reciprocating mass and its benefits or the other route would be to not worry about the function of the FA as generally on a match rifle it has limited utility. Therefore consideration could be then given to other priorities. Edited March 18, 2010 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp73 Posted March 18, 2010 Author Share Posted March 18, 2010 But young may have a new ultra light carrier out soon. Do you know something we don't? details? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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