Everyone got FTDRs

[xcelr8n]

This goes back a couple of years but I was reminded of it and thought to bring it up to the group. One stage at a local IDPA club match consisted of 6 or 8 (I can't recall) pieces of falling steel. Instructions were simple - on the beep knock down the steel.

Our squad had a lead SO who elected to shoot first. He engaged each and every piece of steel. He even fired additional shots after misses. However, he chose to finish with steel still standing and available ammo still remaining. He was scored -5 for each steel left standing.

We all shot it the same way. Some of us knocked down all of the steel, some didn't.

After the match we realized that the other squads were requiring their shooters to expend all available ammo before finishing. The MD was in one of these squads and gave my entire squad a FTDR if the shooter left any steel standing.

What do you think?

[Steve J]

It's a mute point as to whether or not an IDPA procedural of any nature was awarded as it was an illegal stage. The COF rules clearly state that steel cannot make up more than 25% of the required hits in any one stage. Since a string of fire is limited to 18 rounds, you can only have 4 steel targets in any string of fire and you must have 12 required hits on cardboard to go with it.

Illegal stage. Drop it from the results. Procedurals are null and void.

CoF 18. No more than 25% of the shots required on any string of fire may be on steel targets and no more than 10% of the total shots required in the match may be on steel.

CoF 19. No string of fire may exceed a maximum requirement of eighteen (18) rounds.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Steve J

[Glshooter]

It was engaged wasn't it? If you had two misses on a paper target would you be required to expend all your ammo until it had two holes in it?

[xcelr8n]

We knew that it was illegal. That argument was made, heard, and denied.

[Steve J]

Ok, but if you know it's an illegal stage, why try to apply the rules to any ruling that was made? It's mute.

That said, Glshooter is right. If the COF says knock down the steel, under IDPA rules you only have to shoot at each steel target once. It has then been engaged. If you missed them all, it's your time plus 5 points down for each miss, plus one FTN for each steel target. No procedural for wasting ammo.

[xcelr8n]

Steve J, you are exactly correct IMHO.

[Joe4d]

This wasnt an IDPA match so IDPA rules dont matter, Ask the Match director to please publish a set of rules for his match.

[RobMoore]

This stage may not be worth arguing over, but the question still hangs in the air for me.

On a stage saying "all cardboard must receive at least 2 rounds, steel must fall", and the final target is a popper, is it FTDR worthy for a competitor to fire all remaining in the magazine at the popper, go to slide-lock, and stop shooting with a magazine remaining on the belt and the steel still standing?

The way I see it, PC1 D.3 has been violated.

[Joe4d]

Again that wouldnt be a legal stage, or at least not a legal stage description, The all targets MUST part. You gonna give a FTDR for a miss on cardboard ? or is every shooter supposed to run down range check holes then run up range and shoot ? Misses already have a penalty, down 5 for the miss and possibly a failure to neutralize, You cant require a competitor to hit a target under threat of FTDR, at least not under the Published IDPA rule book.

[RobMoore]

You're concentrating on the cardboard part of it. Irrelevant.

The FTDR isn't for missing, it is for deciding that continued fire isn't worth reloading.

[smokshwn]

Steve, the point is moot

[steel1212]

Ok, let me change it for you then since we all know the stage presented is re-donkulas! Shooting ESP with a 1911 9mm that only has 9rd mags. The stage has 5 paper and 1 little piece of steel plate 25 yards away. You slice the pie on the paper and end on the steel. Shooting your 9mm 1911 your at slide lock, your 97 years old and can barely see the paper much less a little piece of steel 25 yards out. You just stop shooting. If there is a yardage limit, which I can't think of right at the moment but there might be take the plate to that limit.

[Ahab]

There was a stage kind of like this at the Tri-State Regional, actually. Part of the stage involved hitting a pair of 8 inch plates at 20 yards, and if you had too many mikes and were shooting ESR/SSR/CDP it would be easy to run yourself out of ammo and not finish the stage. Several shooters engaged the little plates, missed, and opted to take the failure to neutralize and the points instead of risking their ammo supply. That's not a failure to do right, it's just good strategy.

[steel1212]

There was a stage kind of like this at the Tri-State Regional, actually. Part of the stage involved hitting a pair of 8 inch plates at 20 yards, and if you had too many mikes and were shooting ESR/SSR/CDP it would be easy to run yourself out of ammo and not finish the stage. Several shooters engaged the little plates, missed, and opted to take the failure to neutralize and the points instead of risking their ammo supply. That's not a failure to do right, it's just good strategy.

I'll agree its good strategy but I also don't think, just stopping because you can't hit something is right either, In the IDPA "spirit of the game". Steel at the end that is still standing because you stopped is still bad guys you didn't neutralize. Granted so are the steel in the middle of the COF that you thought you hit but are still standing, but at least you just didn't stop on them or it wasn't as obvious if you did. Steel at the end of a COF ends up it being obvious if you just stop because you can't hit it. Steel in the middle of the COF might not be as bad.

Basically either let people shoot it as they want, and take their penalties, and no FTDR, or there should be stiffer penalties for steel left standing. Then again I'll shoot what ever our local MD runs a pretty good match month in and month out.

[CSEMARTIN]

This wasnt an IDPA match so IDPA rules dont matter, Ask the Match director to please publish a set of rules for his match.

If it wasn't an IDPA match, why discuss it at all?

It if was an IDPA match, the MD is the problem.

[Joe4d]

I was actually concentrating on the rule book, not opinions of right and wrong, thats the irrelevant part. Page 17 of the rule book makes no distinction of type of targets.

PP3 Failure to Neutralize

A. Will add 5 seconds per infraction. This penalty applies to any target that does not have at least one four zone or higher value hit.

steel must fall to score so if it is standing it doesnt have a higher value hit. The rule book specifically adresses the way to score a target that hasnt been hit, This thread is in the IDPA rules section. lets keep it on the rules of the game and not on spirits,opinions, or what Wild Bill did at the local stop and rob

[sirveyr]

This stage may not be worth arguing over, but the question still hangs in the air for me.

On a stage saying "all cardboard must receive at least 2 rounds, steel must fall", and the final target is a popper, is it FTDR worthy for a competitor to fire all remaining in the magazine at the popper, go to slide-lock, and stop shooting with a magazine remaining on the belt and the steel still standing?

The way I see it, PC1 D.3 has been violated.

Here is the rule stated above:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise

the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of

inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions,

or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the

MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting

sport. This will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire

match at the discretion of the MD. Repeated offenses reported

to the AC or HQ can result in having membership

revoked.

D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more

convenient time.

2. Purposely committing a procedural error because

your score will be better even with the penalty

3. Not reloading to fire one more round because your

score will be better even with the miss.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm pretty sure that rule was intended to stop folks from firing 11 rounds on a 12 round stage and stopping....

I don't think you can invoke it to make someone exhaust their ammo supply on a popper, and I don't think you can invoke it if someone's engaged a popper with at least one round....

But then, I'm wrong a lot at IDPA matches --- and have gotten very good at following SO instructions....

[Greg Bell]

I think Nik summed it up perfectly. If you shot the min rounds req'd how could you justify a FTDR?

[nwb01]

I think Nik summed it up perfectly. If you shot the min rounds req'd how could you justify a FTDR?

You might not but some other MD or SO could.

Those of us that have been shooting IDPA for awhile understand how subjective the enforcement of the rules can be. Wording in the rule book would fix many things and only benefit both IDPA and the people who shoot it for what it is........a GAME.

[Enthusiast]

Steve, the point is moot

How can you be sure? It could have been completely silent!

[smokshwn]

Steve, the point is moot

How can you be sure? It could have been completely silent!

I stand corrected, you may be right, but that is a lot of guys signing in an arguement

[jmorris]

The MD was in one of these squads and gave my entire squad a FTDR if the shooter left any steel standing.

If you have a stage where 25% of a squad gets procedurals, you are a poor stage designer.

If you have a stage where 100% of a squad gets FTDR’s you don’t have a clue how to design a stage or interpret the rules.

There was a stage kind of like this at the Tri-State Regional, actually.

IIRC they also had a clay target, also not mentioned in the rule book.

[Greg Bell]

Those of us that have been shooting IDPA for awhile understand how subjective the enforcement of the rules can be. Wording in the rule book would fix many things and only benefit both IDPA and the people who shoot it for what it is........a GAME.

Thanks but I have been shooting it for some time and have seen a fair amount bad calls, and yes a clean up of the rules would be nice.

[xcelr8n]

Good discussion, people. I'm glad that I posted it. I wasn't too upset when it happened since it was a non-IDPA legal stage at an IDPA club match.

Edited February 28, 2010 by xcelr8n